New DS III Owner

Regarding the DS3 only. Note that the DS3 is not a class-legal Day Sailer.

Moderator: GreenLake

New DS III Owner

Postby NoCashOnBoard » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:17 am

I just bought my first boat ever, a DaySailer 3. I was impressed to find a forum for a boat like this, most boats of this age and category have long seemed to be forgotten and there isn't much information on the web about the boat. But, as I read through the posts on this forum I see there is some bad blood on the DS 3 because it's not class legal. Oh, so now I'm getting it - this is a racing forum mostly for the DS I but with niceties for the DS II and the DS III seems to bend some people's noses out of joint. Maybe the forum subtitle should be changed to 'Racing forum for the DS I & DS II'. It would help those of us looking for information on our boats. The good news is that there is plenty of information on this forum to help a person out like me and the rigging in the DS III is similar enough to the DS II to get information on that subject. So far, I've enjoyed reading the old posts and getting plenty of tips and information about my 'new to me' boat that I'll be picking up in the spring.

I just wanted to say, 'Hi!' I'll be poking around in the old posts and getting information about my boat. I posted pictures in the gallery if you are interested in seeing what I bought. I paid $600 dollars for it, the seller wanted $800 but he gladly accepted 6. I'm just getting into sailing as part of my ten year exit plan from the work force. I want to gather as much experience as I can so I can sail in my retirement years. In the meantime I'll enjoy this old boat with my son.

Many of you have some really great information on boat handling, have any of you made videos demonstrating these techniques? Just a thought.
Lucas Parrish
1986 DaySailer 3 (first boat ever!)
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby rnlivingston » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:49 am

Hi Lucas
Welcome to the Forum. Although you will not find a lot of chatter about the DS III, information about the DS II will work for you. O'Day did not make a lot of DS III, so you do not see many out there. But you can still get parts for the boat. Although it looks like racers dominate the forum, most Daysailer owners only cruise their boats. The few times I've sailed the DS III, I found it to be an excellent boat to sail and very stable. I'm sure you and your son will thoroughly enjoy it.
Roger Livingston
DS 6872
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby GreenLake » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:56 pm

Welcome to the forum, Lucas, and I hope you will enjoy your first boat ever. With "picking it up in the spring" seems you are in for a bit of delayed gratification and have time to let the expectations build up :)

Reading the old posts, isn't a bad way to pass that time. When I started here, that's what I did. I must have read simply everything that was on the forum when I joined. I also tracked down anything that I could find outside the forum. On sailing in general or on fiberglass repairs. Not a bad winter activity :)

The fun comes when you get to test all your theoretical insights against the reality of sailing or fixing an actual boat. We expect to see you back here with lots of follow-up questions.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby NoCashOnBoard » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:06 am

Thanks for the warm welcome! :D

I've been finding a ton of information on this boat. I knew 'my' boat would come along. I've been contacting sellers and looking at classifieds for awhile but nothing panned out. The sellers usually wanted too much for a derelict boat. I stayed patient and just waited it out, knowing this boat would come along. This is definitely the right boat, the DS I and DS II racing help keep this boat alive, so there is plenty of information on rigging, sailing and parts. No other boat in this class, size and capability that I looked at had this, most are orphans living out the remainder of their plastic days without any support whatsoever.

This boat comes from a Sailing School in Delaware for kids. They used the boat to teach the youngsters about sailing, I figured if they put kids in the boat that it's fairly safe and in good condition. Also, a sailing school would know more about rigging than others and keep that tuned and in good shape. At least that is what I figured, never know though. The money according to the person I spoke to goes back into the kitty to teach kids about sailing. All around I feel good about this purchase.

As far as racing goes, I have no time for it and not much interest. Sorry, don't mean to offend any racers out there. Raising my son who has special needs takes all my time. Everything takes twice as long and twice the energy and I'm an old daddy at 47. I don't have the energy of a twenty or thirty something. My work days are long and coming home at night I take over from my spouse and work with him from there. My weekends are devoted to spending time with him. Being a dad is my current adventure. I motorcycled before that and enjoyed that sport very much but I couldn't do it with Jacob. I didn't feel comfortable having the bike around with him and I had no time to go for rides anymore.

I'm looking into the future and where I want to be when this adventure is over. I work for the guberment and I'll have my pension and savings. I'd like to live sustainably in tune with nature and its rhythms. Sailing came into my view and I started to look into that. Power by the wind, I can have electric drive and a composting toilet. I know that all sounds hippy-dippy, but even though I work in the Tech Sector as a Software Engineer I'm slowly wanting to shed technology and get back to the basics. Putting my hands on the ropes and not letting a robot take over. While I'm enjoying being a dad, I can take the time now to learn how to sail with my son. I'm looking forward to many happy times working on the boat with him and sailing the lakes of Ontario and Erie.

Is it true the DS III has a cooler built into the port side? I've read that in several places, if so how cool is that?
Lucas Parrish
1986 DaySailer 3 (first boat ever!)
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby GreenLake » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:19 pm

The DS is more stable on the water than many other dinghies of approximately same size, which makes it much more forgiving for beginners. I understand that the major difference in hull design between DS1/2 and DS III is higher freeboard in the rear. That ought to give it an advantage in some conditions.

Are you planning on taking your son sailing with you? I find it easy to "single-hand" the DS with a kid onboard but I understand your situation may be a bit different.

About the racing, no reason to feel apologetic. Many of the contributors to this forum are either exclusively or primarily sailing for pleasure (day-sailing or cruising, as opposed to racing, although many find that pleasurable as well). Some are "casual" racers, that is, they enjoy the fact that this gives them a scheduled time to go out on the water (that can be easier to fit into a family schedule than taking off whenever the weather is good) and the company (especially afterwards, whether over a pizza or beer, or both). Many people get started doing casual sailing and after a while find that doing it in company is more fun. Some manage to do organized outings, others find it easier to coalesce some organized event, and those are often "races".

I've spent several years sorting out sailing, the boat, etc. and then joined a local event that's "free for all comers". I now have a group of friends I didn't have before -- and the best thing, I didn't have to join anything nor do I have to be competitive about it. So, what people do with their boats is highly personal and varies widely. You'll do what fits your style and needs, and the DS is a perfect boat for supporting a wide range of sailing styles.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby NoCashOnBoard » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:55 am

GreenLake, that's great advice.

I hope no one takes that I'm poo-poo'ing racing. I think it's a great sport and I wouldn't mind giving it a try after I learn to sail and get comfortable with the boat. I know the DS III isn't class legal but a 'bring what you have' kind of event could be fun. I found with motorcycling that it was really difficult to meet up with like minded people that enjoyed the same style of riding that I did. I rode alone a lot because my schedule and style didn't jive with others that I found. I met occasionally with friends and rode with them and that was cool. But, for the most part I was alone.

Yes, I want my son to come along sailing. His special needs are caused by a missing chromosome that causes learning disabilities, ADHD like symptoms and speech difficulties. Physically he's fully functional and loves to be active and out doing stuff. We went to Florida this summer and took a kayak tour, he absolutely loved it! He laid on the front of the boat watching the water go by. It was a very special moment with him. He's very excited about the new boat and can't wait until spring to go get it. He wants me to get it now, but it's hard to explain all the complexities I need to go through to get this boat. The life of a Can-Am (I'm an American living in Canada, working in Buffalo - crazy!)

Single-handed sailing is something I want to learn to do. I am working on getting the spouse to get involved, hopefully that will work out and I won't get any crap about it. That's another reason I do things alone a lot.

When I retire I want to work up to a pocket-cruiser like a Flicka 20, Dana 24, Contessa 26 or a Yarmouth 23. Something I can handle on my own and live aboard. I have no dreams of far off destinations and tequila sunrises, I'll just let the wind take me where it wants to. I've travelled the world plenty and seen a lot already. My goal is to live more sustainably and so far sailing seems to tick all the right boxes.
Lucas Parrish
1986 DaySailer 3 (first boat ever!)
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby GreenLake » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:52 pm

Lucas, I think you made a good choice with the DS given your situation and your goals.

I've had many kids on my boat, both my own and their friends and the DS is a great boat for that. To get both kid and wife to enjoy the boat, your aim should be to provide many pleasant outings that are entirely devoid of suggestions of physical danger or anything where you are not in total control. The only exception to that seem to be teenage boys who sometimes like to challenge themselves. (And some people just don't like boats)

Learn all you can about your local weather and how to predict the actual winds you'll encounter on the water. Around 6knots with gust not more than about 8, you can expect to have a very pleasant sail in the DS - it's enough to move the boat quite briskly, but you generally don't need to sit out, hike or sail with the boat heeled. (All of those can seem "scary" to people that are new to boats).

It's also a good range of wind speeds to single hand (especially when you are learning). There is enough wind that you get the reaction of the boat based on your sail trim and steering inputs, but not enough to overwhelm you. Later, you'll enjoy the challenge of sailing in less wind, how to make the boat go, when the air seems to be barely moving (something that can be very satisfying but usually bores the passengers to tears :) ). And you'll eventually work yourself up to handling the boat in higher winds with confidence.

Unless you have the rare wife who is or develops into a competent sailor in her own right, you'll probably do a lot of what I call "single handing in company". I found that it's almost like single handing, except, it's amazing how even a little occasional help by someone who otherwise is mostly a "passenger" can make a difference. Even a five year old can hold the tiller for a moment, or reach for something in the boat, so I don't need to rig the bungee cord that holds the tiller like I do, when I go out by myself. But in some crucial sense the situation is the same - it'll be you alone who understands what needs to be done to get where you want to go and how to get home safely.

I think you will enjoy that challenge and wonder how you ever managed to live without sailing. :D

Good luck with being patient until the start of the season. (And we expect you back here with lots of questions about prepping and rigging, and potentially restoring bits of your boat).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby jeadstx » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:57 pm

Welcome to the forum Lucas.

Like Greenlake has said, the Day Sailer is a good boat to learn to sail. The Day Sailer has the advantage of still being in production although it is the DS1 model primarily. Being still in production, parts are available if needed. If you haven't checked it out yet, D&R Marine http://www.drmarine.com/categories.asp?cat=64 have parts for these boats including the DS3 where a part is specific to that model.

Although there seems to be a lot of information on the boats that race, I think the bulk of the forum are probably boats that cruise or daysail. I race one race each year just for fun and to get together with other sailors that sail the DS. The rest the time I day sail or camp cruise. The DS is great for camp cruising. Although not the easiest to sleep onboard, the boat can be beached for camping ashore. I've sailed my DS2 up the Texas coast (200 miles) several times during the past few summers. Others sail a similar event in Florida (120 miles). There are other distance events as well. My DS2 is fitted with oars as well for auxillary power and I have solar panels. If you look on the forum under old posts you will find many no racing modifications done to these boats.

Get yourself familiar with the boat by single handing it. Understand how she behaves in different winds and enjoy the boat.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby K.C. Walker » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:51 pm

Welcome aboard! I have a DS1 and have not officially raced it. As mine is right now, it does not meet class rules, so I couldn't officially race it, anyway. I have raced some other boats but not too seriously. Of course, I'll take on all challengers!… Whether they know it or not. One of the guys, Moose, at our New England DaySailer meet up has a DS3. It seems like a fine boat.

A lot of people will talk about keeping their boat within class rules, even if they are not racing. A lot of people like to keep the boats as original as possible. However, these boats are not valuable antiques, so they're a great platform to do whatever you would like to with, especially if you have a DS3. However, there is value in having a known entity, especially on this forum, because you can get help, and as John pointed out, parts are available.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby GreenLake » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:23 am

I'm guilty of the tendency towards staying within the class rules. Doesn't buy me anything, really, the one race that I could join locally - a mixed dinghy fleet of class-legal boats that would sail under handicap rules, I would need a measurement certificate, and I'm not likely to get that. Nevertheless, I'd hesitate to make any modifications that are not reversible, who knows, maybe someone cares when I try to sell the boat. That doesn't prevent me from flying a spinnaker that may not measure (looks close though) because I got it for free, and if it became an issue, a new one could be purchased...

However, I totally agree with K.C.'s view that these boats are not antiques. There is something about fiberglass that, to my mind, resists the idea of restoration for purely aesthetic reasons. I have no qualms about throwing out old cam cleats or blocks or jib tracks when they've reached the end of their working life, and to replace them with solidly functional more up-to-date equivalents, but without trying to make the boat into something that it isn't. All additions to the running rigging need to serve some purpose in the context that I sail the boat in, and I only get as fancy as it fits my style.

I do enjoy the bits of wood trim found on the old DS1s, so I'm going to keep things like the floor boards, but they will never look again like they just came out of the showroom. I mostly try to find ways to reduce the needed maintenance. Even with this lackadaisical approach, I've seen my boat referred to as "pretty" by someone I don't know on a facebook site frequented by local sailors.

So, for the early DSs, I get that where I see mostly the fiberglass, other people mostly see the wood, and from the point of view, I have total sympathy for people who just have different goals in their upkeep and am happy to admire their handiwork. Those super restored boats sure look beautiful.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby NoCashOnBoard » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:21 am

You have given me some very good information. I'm in the initial 'overwhelmed by information phase'. :shock:

It's a good time and you only go through it once and then laugh about it later. This reminds me so much of my motorcycling days, I laid awake at night while I realized what I had done. There was a crazy machine in my garage and I oh so much wanted to ride it but was scared to death of it. I did what I always do when I get involved in these activities, I hit the books and the internet. I read, read, read and learn, learn, learn. It may seem boring to some but for me it's the technical aspects that get me excited and make the sport so much more enjoyable. I know what to watch out for and how to properly execute a maneuver or at least how to attempt it. I rode for five years and didn't have one incident, not one and I chalk that up to reading, taking classes and practicing over and over again. I had a blast, this dogmatic methodology didn't take any of the fun out of it. I would put on over 10,000 kilometers every year! I went through a set of tires every season.

Now, I'm just patiently waiting for the spring when I can get her out on the water. Yesterday would have been a good day to sail as I had the day off from work as I work in Buffalo, NY. The winds were light and very small waves rippled across the surface of the lake. Some large freighters were anchored off-shore in the anchorage area marked on the charts for this area waiting their turn to enter the Welland Canal. It was cold and crisp, about 2 degrees Celsius but I was thinking - you know if I bundled up and had the boat, I would go out for a sail today. Maybe next year, if the weather is that decent I'll do that. With motorcycling, I went in all weather except for snow and ice, I'm not that crazy but I know people that did. I can remember riding for four hours in a downpour that filled my boots with water! (I always wore all the gear, all the time - full suit, gloves, full helmet)

I have figured out how to get the boat from Delaware to Niagara on the Lake, I asked my brother who is a truck driver and has vehicles that can tow with hitches. He said he would be glad to help me next spring go get the boat. That will be a fun road trip. Then I found several outdoor storage places to keep my boat. I live in a semi-detached house with no space to store a boat. Those questions are now settled. Next I need to figure how to tow the boat. We own a Nissan Versa that is rated as not-recommended for towing and a Mitsubishi I-MiEV Electric Car. These towing capacities are very arbitrary. A Nissan Sentra is rated at 800 lbs which basically the same vehicle, different body style. A Toyota Corrolla with the same size 1.8 litre engine is rated at 1500 lbs. while a Camry is only rated at 1000 lbs! Makes no sense to me at all. So, what I figured I would do is just put a hitch on the Versa and tow it anyway. The storage I found is only a few kilometers from the boat ramp I plan to use. I don't feel that I'll be causing any damage to the Versa towing this light-weight boat and trailer at low speeds that far. I towed my 2500 lb I-MiEV with the Versa once when I ran it out of juice. The Versa had no trouble doing that at all.

Next question, maybe you have done this and can give me a good idea of what I should do. I don't want to put a motor on this boat, I have no interest in dealing with that. Just keep it simple and light. You mentioned using a paddle. I was thinking of trying to scull this boat or oar it. But that would involve hardware and long oars. Paddling sounds like a better option, no hardware needed and thus no additional holes in the fiberglass. What size paddles do you recommend for use with this boat. I see I can get paddles in 2 1/2 to 6 foot lengths. What size paddle would you use with this boat?

Thanks for the help with this.
Lucas Parrish
1986 DaySailer 3 (first boat ever!)
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby GreenLake » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:47 pm

Reading -- totally agree.

Cold weather sailing -- can be fun.

With cold water, protective gear is a must. Either a dry suit, or a extra heavy wet suit for cold water.

Propulsion -- the DS, in calm water, is still sluggish to move. With oars, you can keep it up for a while, with paddles, 200-300' is about the max distance you want to try it for. The higher range is for enthusiastic crew that has something to prove. Mine are about 5-6' long and work well for docking.

Next step up is a trolling motor (40lbs thrust). That works well for calm water in distances of up to 1-2 miles. Fine to navigate short and narrow channels to/from the dock, under bridges, and across smaller calm spots. On a big lake, you are likely going to be out of range to return home on a single battery. (I always bring two). (Many threads on that here, go look them up)

Next step up is the Torqeedo. Fancy battery technology and motor/propeller optimized to act more like an outboard. Expensive, but, for the DS, should be rather functional as an auxiliary.

Or get about 2.5 - 3.5hp outboard. Propane or gasoline. Propane gives you about as much range per small canister as a 12V battery gives you on a trolling motor, but its easier to bring multiple :) Goes a bit faster, too. But noisy - very.

On towing -- boat and trailer are a bit over 1000 lbs. Should be fine with most cars. Those not rated may have weaker transmissions and/or brakes. Trailers that size are usually not equipped with their own brakes. There's a thread on towing vehicles here somewhere. But you can probably find discussions on this topic for other sports.

Laptop battery running out, so this is a bit terse for a reply, even with so many questions. Hope it gives you a start.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby jeadstx » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:39 pm

I can answer some of the oar thing Monday when I get back to my regular computer.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby NoCashOnBoard » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:52 pm

Thanks, GreenLake! You are a wealth of information on the topic. I've read many posts as I dig through the archives and find your name in there, aplenty!

JeadStx - looking forward to your thoughts on oars or paddles and what size of the oar/paddle you used.

I've read several books where people have circumnavigated without engines on much bigger and heavier boats than the DS. They scull or oar them into the marinas/anchorages or just mainly sail them. I know that puts the sailor at the mercy of the wind and tides but once I retire, then I won't really care about meeting a schedule. I really want to figure this out and be able to do that when I get my pocket cruiser. The DS is my training laboratory so I can learn and figure out what is and what is not possible.

Been reading my book on Sail Trim and Rigging this morning by Ivar Dedekam. I like this book a lot, very good illustrations and helpful dialogue. I wouldn't recommend it as a primer though, Ivar gets right to brass tacks with such things as Windward and Leeward which I knew by taking several on line courses and reading some other books before this.
Lucas Parrish
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Re: New DS III Owner

Postby GreenLake » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:49 am

Dedekam's book may even be a bit too advanced. If it's the same book of his as I have.

On the other hand, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have read a bit ahead of class, so to speak.

Check out arvelgentry.com for a number of very readable articles on what really makes sails do what they do. There are also some books on the physics of sailing that are accessible and worth reading (one of my favorites has just that as a title).

Generally I would read anything about boat handling that's written for dinghies (or seems generally applicable). I don't think I need to particularly encourage you there, but there are a number of maneuvers that, while a bit advanced, are good to internalize so you can practice them when you get out on the water. Beyond simply sailing on all points of sail, what I am referring to is heaving to and a good man-over-board (MOB) maneuver. Not all books are equal in really explaining these. So, read until you are satisfied that you think you got the idea and then try them out.

The former is essential to be able to take a "break" while on the water. Or to just simply stop sailing, so you can fix something, shorten the sail, or do any of a number of things. The latter, you can figure out what it's good for - I once retrieved a hat fast enough so it hadn't had a chance to sink. Your mileage may vary.

People have indeed crossed oceans in small boats, but they tended to have enclosed cabins - large volumes filled with air to keep the boat afloat even in a storm, and even if the cockpit got swamped. And ballast to right them. While modern boats have tanks and foam, to keep them afloat, once the boat is swamped or capsized, or both, it can be difficult to right it and sail on.

Because of this, having an engine to get you off the water quickly in unexpectedly deteriorating conditions might be worthwhile. How worthwhile is dependent on where you sail and what the local conditions are. That said, knowing you have a motor makes it tempting to risk getting in situations where it then will be needed. Going out in sketchy conditions because you rely on your engine makes you less safe...

Some areas, such as tidal channels, rivers etc. may effectively not be sailable -- esp. if they lack sufficient winds, so a motor can allow you to visit places that you could not get to under sail or oars. You don't have tides to contend with on a lake, but there are wind-driven currents on the larger lakes, that could make it that much less effective to try to, for example, sail home to a location that is upwind.

Anyway, something to consider in selecting a propulsion system.

Being very reluctant about using a motor, and attempting to sail what can be done under sail will improve your boathandling skills. And being patient for the wind to return (I recommend taking a nap during a calm) can be relaxing and more rewarding than immediately using the motor. But there are times and places where you will reach the limits of this approach. Especially on a DaySailer - because your usual goal is to be done sailing by day's end, you are normally not equipped to just wait things out for ever.

Some people I know really hate sailing at night (or being forced to continue past nightfall to make it home). Others love it. If your crew includes the former, a motor may be a must, or you won't have them for crew much longer.

Hope these thoughts help you in fine-tuning your plans.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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