Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudder

Regarding the DS3 only. Note that the DS3 is not a class-legal Day Sailer.

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Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudder

Postby Nanga7 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:22 am

Hello all. After discovering I have a love for sailing, I went out and bought a Chrysler Mutineer. It was a great boat but a bit to active for my family. I then sought to find a Daysailer. I found a nice Daysailer 3 for a good price and drove 6 hours away to pick it up. When I got there, to my surprise, the guy couldn't find the rudder anywhere.
Hmmmm..... Anyways, it was a nice boat and we settled on a good price without a rudder. I now have a boat that needs a rudder. Unfortunately a new rudder costs $450-$500. It seems that Daysailer 1 and 2s have a different rudder that a Daysailer 3. Confirm? I am handy and could probably make a nice rudder if I had the proper dimensions or plans for a Daysailer 3 rudder. It seems that the size and shape are pretty important to the performance and I don't want to compromise that. Could anybody help me with plans, dimensions or a replacement rudder? Is it possible to modify a DS 1/2 rudder to fit and still get the correct performance? Thanks! It is great to have such an awesome forum with such passionate people...
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:50 pm

You are correct that making your own rudder is straightforward.

I think you overestimate the "precision" needed. While the DS3 hull is a bit different (higher freeboard, I understand, for one) it's not an entirely different boat. My prediction would be that a DS1/DS2 rudder blade would work fine for you; if the freeboard is higher, then you would need a taller rudder head.

The detailed arrangement of pintles and gudgeons changed even within the DS1 line over time; I was unable to lend my rudder to a friend whose boat is just a few years older. So, that aspect of the rudder head design (location and type of gudgeons and pintles) would need to be adapted.

The DS rudder pivots. In the standard configuration, the pivot point is 1" above the bottom of the transom. While this barely clears the water when the boat is sailing, I would not move that point much higher. The argument would be that doing so increases the lever arm. (There's a clever design discussed in a recent thread where the pivot moves in a slot, so that the blade can pivot back and move up, so it comes completely out of the water. Useful when you beach the boat a lot, otherwise not necessary).

Given the location of the pivot, you can design a rudder head of the correct dimensions for your boat, with the hardware positioned so it fits your transom. But for the blade, you can use the DS1/DS2 dimensions (unless you get specific suggestions otherwise).

I have a thread here somewhere about a rudder rebuild in wood, others have posted on building rudder heads in metal. My personal goal was to save weight at the transom and to get a better foil shape than the stock rudder. The new rudder has performed well for several seasons, so I'm guardedly confident that the design is strong enough. If your sailing area runs to high winds, I would think about adding carbon or kevlar strips at key points to provide further reserve strength.

I think it took me about a weekend's worth to do the rudder, but I did not actually do everything in one session.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:19 pm

Nanga7, I'm the one who built the slotted rudder head about a year ago. Uses the stock blade and works great! PM me if you want details/info, but as GL states, the DS3 has higher freeboard aft, so you might need to tweak height/pintle/gudgeon placement ... ?

This page shows a slightly different blade shape for the -3 and some later -2's, but I would think the original blade would work:

http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DS132

This page has the dimensions for the "class legal" blade (pages 7-8):

http://forum.daysailer.org/pdf/dsbylaw3.pdf
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby Nanga7 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:25 pm

OK, am I correct that the only difference in the DS1/2 and DS3 hulls is that the 3 has a higher freeboard? If this is true, does the DS3 rudder extend the same depth past the bottom of the transom as the DS1 and 2s? If this is true or not, would I be able to make a rudder that is similar to the DS1/2 in that it has the same size and, pivot point but has a longer rudder head that allows for the tiller to clear and accommodate the higher freeboard and has the pintles set so that the rudder extends the same depth past the bottom of the transom? I hope that makes sense. I figure that if this is true then I can make a rudder the same as you good sailors have done for your DS1 and 2s but make the rudder head longer by the length of the difference in freeboard height so that the tiller clears. I have built furniture, cabinets and my home. I figure I should be able to fabricate a rudder with plans or dimensions. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge that you share. Thank you...
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby GreenLake » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:40 pm

We believe that these things are "true" for all practical purposes. Any other variations, if they exist, would be expected to be insignificant for your purpose; thus, our belief that something built on the basis of a DS1/2 should be eminently workable.

The class rules specify a rounded tip: since the DS3 is not subject to class rules, you could substitute your own design for a tip, such as a squared off planform. I did not do this, but my experience is that with the half circle tip it is difficult to define what the profile should be.

A rudder is the kind of project that is small enough that you can consider repeating it, as you gained experience with your first effort. To that end, here are two nice articles I just found (to be taken together with all the other stuff we posted here).
http://www.boat-links.com/foils.html
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/keel%20and%20rudder%20design.pdf

Just one more advice: don't let perfection stand in the way of completion ;)
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:53 pm

Don't know if the higher aft freeboard is the only difference between the -3 and the -1 and -2. Generally speaking, a rudder blade of similar size and shape would work for either of the two different hull shapes, given that the overall hull and rig dimensions, sailplan, CB size and shape, etc. are very similar, if not the same. The point that GL is making (I think) is that one would want to have the same effective rudder surface below the W/L, and have the pivot point at the same relative location. Given the -3's higher aft freeboard, this would simply mean a longer rudder head, all else being the same. Sure sounds like you have the credentials for building things, and this shouldn't be that big a deal for you. Just take careful measurements of everything, as with any other project, and I think you'll do just fine.
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby Nanga7 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:35 am

Greenlake and Mr Webb
Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions for me. The wealth of knowledge you share is greatly appreciated. Thanks to your help I have the plans for a DS1/2 rudder so I know the length, width and pivot point location. In order to set it up for the DS3 I guess I need to know the length that the rudder needs to extend past the bottom of the transom in the down position so that I can calculate my pintle location and rudder head height. You guys probably know that off the top of your heads... The other consideration is to just buy the Rudder Tech or DR Marine rudder. Anybody have input as to the better design? I would like to make one but time is pretty tight for me right now. Also is there merit to making the rudder a little larger than regulation DS since I have a DS3? Thanks again! I am from Northeast Ohio near Lake Erie and am really looking forward to getting out on this thing!
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby GreenLake » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:52 am

I don't know enough about the DS3 to know any reason to assume that it needs a different rudder size. (I have done a quick search and not found mention of any clear differences other than the higher freeboard). The rudder size on a boat is usually chosen in relation to the CB dimensions. Changing one dramatically would create an imbalance, one would think.

About 3rd party rudders, I can't help you that much. If spending money, you are looking for something that has a proper foil shape. I wouldn't spend money on something like the original rudder, which is terribly crude.

DR Marine will usually answer your questions on the phone and they (Rudy) are very knowledgeable about DaySailers.

If building your own. The vertical position is such that the pivot point is 1" above the bottom of the hull. If you know the distance from pivot to tip, which is given, that should fix everything else.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:35 pm

Before I built the slotted rudder head, I (briefly) considered one of these:

http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/prod ... cts_id=185

Just couldn't justify the price tho, knowing that I could make my own, but they *are* nice, and I've seen them on similar boats.

The only "regulation" or requirement for the DS rudder head that I know of is the pivot hole location shown on page 8 of the bylaws, with the hole being 9" aft of the transom and 1" above the projected hull bottom at hull centerline. Using that location, it's easy enough to size the head and place the pintles with relation to where the existing gudgeons are on the transom.

I grew up in the Akron area, and learned to sail on the inland lakes around there, as well as a few forays out onto "The Big E"! ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby Nanga7 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:03 pm

Akron? Cool Tim...
I grew up in the Portage Lakes but only had an appreciation for boats with motors and water skis back then...
I have come to discover a love of sailing and am spending way too much time trying to absorb a lot!
I have been sailing the Portage Lakes, West Branch, Chippewa, and Lake Erie. Oh, and a couple places up in Michigan...
Loving it. I appreciate all of you and Greenlakes help. It is so nice to have such an awesome Forum. Even if I do have one of those DS 3s...
If you were from Akron, where are you sailing now?
Jeff
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby jeadstx » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:34 pm

I built a rudder head similar to what Tim built, except mine was a bit heavier than his to deal with conditions I encounter on the Texas coast. I'm better at repairing things than building from scratch, but found building a rudder head to be fairly easy. Since I built my original rudder head, I laid out a revised plan in AutoCAD that is lighter. When I get around to building the lighter weight model I plan to adapt the spacer method Tim used instead of the solid core that mine was laid out with.

The main difference that I can see between the DS1/2 and the DS3 rudder heads would be height of the rudder head. The DS1/2 rudder blade should work for the DS3, although as has been stated, the DS3 can be altered as it is not governed by class rules. Both my rudder head and Tim's rudder heads are designed to allow the rudder blade to lift out of the water when beach in very shallow areas we sail in on our respective coastal waters. Both of our rudders have uphaul and downhaul lines with an auto release cleat on the downhaul line to kick up the blade if it hits something.

Nanga7, as with Tim, I can send you a copy of my drawings if you would like to see them for reference.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:32 pm

Nanga7 wrote:Akron? Cool Tim...
I grew up in the Portage Lakes but only had an appreciation for boats with motors and water skis back then...
I have come to discover a love of sailing and am spending way too much time trying to absorb a lot!
I have been sailing the Portage Lakes, West Branch, Chippewa, and Lake Erie. Oh, and a couple places up in Michigan...
Loving it. I appreciate all of you and Greenlakes help. It is so nice to have such an awesome Forum. Even if I do have one of those DS 3s...
If you were from Akron, where are you sailing now?
Jeff

Yeah, a good portion of my misspent college years were evenings on the Portage Lakes, and it had much more to do with kegs on pontoon boats than sailing ... ;-P

West Branch was the first place I ever set foot on a sailboat. In junior high school I was working at a summer camp for 5th graders, and they had Sunfish boats for rent at the marina. Somebody said that somebody should teach the kids how to sail. I volunteered, thinking how hard can it be? Those kids taught me a lot more than I taught them! Did a lot of sailing down at Atwood reservoir too.

A love of sailing entails a lifetime of learning, and the curve can be steep at times. The best thing to do is just get out there and go ...

Yes, this forum is a priceless resource, and we are all very thankful that it exists, and that we have a person as knowledgeable as Greenlake at it's helm. If you find it helpful, consider joining the DSA which makes it possible:

https://daysailer.org/Join-us

I'm now in central FL, and sailing on the inland lakes, intracoastal waterway, and occasionally on the Panhandle/Gulf Coast/Everglades area with a small boat cruising group out of Tampa.

But back to the subject at hand: as John states, I built my rudder head mainly to be able to beach the boat stern to shore w/o having to remove the rudder from the boat. Your needs may vary ...
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby Nanga7 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:49 am

I appreciate any plans or advice I can get. Thank you

nanga7@yahoo.com

Jeff
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby jeadstx » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:19 am

I'm sending you PDFs of my rudder head plans to look at/modify for your own build if you want. These plans work with the standard DS1/DS2 rudder blade. I bought my tiller from D&R Marine, it is the Mariner tiller, which is the same length as a DS tiller. I prefer the SS straps where it attaches to the rudder head instead of wood. Original type DS tiller works also.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Need a rudder or plans/dimensions for a Daysailer 3 rudd

Postby Nanga7 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:32 am

Thank you, Thank you!
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