Learning to sail

Moderator: GreenLake

Postby hectoretc » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:33 pm

GreenLake wrote: I äm troubled by your self-admitted lack of experience sailing this boat. I tend to prefer getting a baseline experience first - otherwise how am I going to tell whether the work actually improved anything.


Thanks GL (and everyone who's looking out for me) - of course you're right about nearly all of that.

I have sailed a little, a long time ago, as a passenger not even crew, but it never left me, which is what got me thinking that I wanted a sailboat about two years ago.

Last year I tripped across a little 11' dingy with a lanteen and I loved it. The guy who sold it to me had the sail on upside down, and I figured that out by sitting in it on the grass, watching the wind blow and the sail flop. Convinced it couldn't be right, I took it all apart, added a couple blocks to make things lines run smoother, added some cleats because I figured out right away, that I would have a challenge raising the sail while holding the rudder 5 feet away.

First sail, had no idea what I was doing, and fully expected to dump it on my first time out, but I didn't. Not once all summer, even when it was gusting pretty good, but I did learn that all you have to do is let go of what I now know is the sheet, and things calm right down. Had no idea at the time how simple that craft is compared to a real sail boat, but that's where one grows.

When I came across this DSII at a local auction in August, I made a couple hundred dollar bid knowing there's no way I would get it, but I did... So now what? (I thought) This one had LOTS of parts that didn't make any sense to me, and I didn't think sitting in the grass was going to cut it. Fortunately, I found this site, and the expertise contained herein.

I've always (always) been one who once I get interested in a subject, I really immerse myself with learning everything there is to know about it. And there is a lot that can be learned dry sailing. I believe very strongly in visualization learning. I can sit in the boat, and imagine how it will handle based on what I read here (or an approximation thereof). I know now how to heave to, never having done it. I will certainly need to try it, but at least I know what it is, when it’s used, and how (on paper) to do it. I've read and learned about reefing, I've learned that you really can't sail on a main well without the jib (complete opposite of what I would have expected) and I've learned that you want to keep the boat flat in the water, contrary to 90% of the pictures that show sailboats up at a sharp angle (makes for a better picture). I've also found myself gravitating to marinas on some of our larger lakes looking at the sailboats and their rigging. I'm sure you all remember how confusing it was at first, and I've learned there are many ways to do the same thing. Each one is different and each one is best (depending on who you talk to).

I am very happy to have learned about waterlogged styrofoam, cracked hull joints, potential failure of stemheads, leaky centerboard grommets, snapping stays and all of those things. I've read many posts on this board about "old boat, new owner" catastrophes on the maiden voyage and want to try to avoid all of that. If I hadn’t gone through this exercise this winter, I would have put the boat in the water next spring and probably watched it sink to the bottom (well maybe not). But with all the issues I’ve found, I clearly would have spent the entire summer repairing it, under the watchful eye of my wife who suggested that perhaps this wasn’t the best of ideas in the first place (always best to avoid the I told you so's when you can)

And on that note, at least for a while I will absolutely be sailing solo (which is also probably a good thing until I learn), so anything I can learn in advance, or things I can do to un-complicate the learning process is a plus for me.

I am also a tinkerer... I think Jay and I may be kindred souls because I simply love everything he’s done to his boat. At the onset, I didn’t have a clue what any of it meant, and I am amused that I’ve modified my mast twice and never had the boat in the water.

I don’t want to photocopy his boat, but I do like the originality of it and much of his thinking process, so in that respect, maybe a class boat isn’t the best place for me. But I didn't buy it because of the class (I didn't know about class). I bought it because I wanted a sailboat, and it went cheap. The fact that it's an Oday DaySailer which is an exceptional boat, is simply the sheerest of luck. I know I’m destroying the class distinction of the boat with some of my mods, but I don’t care. (really) I’m very unlikely to formally race "this" boat. As I've mentioned numerous times, it's been beat up pretty badly and I'd be afraid to stress it. I’m probably at the very least hundreds of miles from the nearest fleet or class race or equivalent, and as far as resale goes, I only paid $200 for this boat so I doubt I’ll ever sell it. If I do, I’ll just look for someone like me who doesn’t care as much about the class value as much as the little extras that make it more comfortable or distinct. And if not, I'll keep it for my grand kids. I've already put the little lanteen boat away for them. If I decided to get into racing, knowing what I've learned, I'd buy another DS in much better starting condition, and keep it stock.

Anyway (aren’t you glad you opened ‘this door’?)

A very important point I want to make is that I completely appreciate yours and everyone’s help, guidance and ideas. I appreciate the concern that I’m biting off more than I can chew, without even knowing if it’s food.

If I seem to be wandering off into the woods in the dark without a flashlight, I really honestly do appreciate the heads up warnings and hope they will continue. I take every one of them seriously.

I’m just bumping along here, killing time in the winter waiting for a chance to get this puppy in the water and spend my time sailing instead of practicing. Come summer there's decks to build (on the cabin), terra-forming of our mud beach to something more human friendly and a thousand other projects on the "honey do" list so everynon-busy moment I want to be out on the lake sailing.

Thanks again all!
DS #6127 - Breakin' Wind - From the land of 10,000 lakes, which spend 80% of the year frozen it seems...
hectoretc
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis MN

Postby jdoorly » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:44 pm

I'd say the feeling is mutual, not to mention it's the 'dead' (winter) season for the forum and Scott has been setting records for interesting activity.

Rock on...
DS2 #6408 "Desperado"
jdoorly
 
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 2:24 pm
Location: CT

Postby GreenLake » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:59 pm

Nice introduction! Do you mind if I split that into a separate topic? Because it goes beyond sails.

My first sailing adventures were similarly self-taught, but on the DS, I was happy to have someone with more experience along on the maiden voyage.

Something always goes wrong, in our case, the jib tracks pulled out (while a thunderstorm suddenly appeared behind the island).

Since then, I've progressed to where I don't think twice about sailing solo - but found that some tiller taming device is needed. My low-tech approach consists of two bungees. One goes across the boat and underneath the tiller. The other is wrapped around both tiller and first bungee, creating friction.

I set the friction so that it will hold the tiller, but I can overcome it easily by steering, which sets the tiller to a new setting. For small adjustments, while I'm sailing, the bungee has enough flexibility so not every small correction leads to a new setting.

I need no extra hand to engage/disengage the thing and a simple sharp tug will correct the setting. OK, that was about sailing.

About maintenance - I'm with you on doing all the hull repairs immediately. Cutting the mast - I might have waited, and changing the running (or standing) rigging is something that I'd definitely advise you to delay until you've seen it in operation. (I'm repeating myself here - I remember writing this in some other thread).

If something is obviously broken, you fix it. I'm happy I had an old set of jib tracks to break - so not only did I get an upgrade, I knew where the weak point was in securing the tracks and could make sure I did a better job. And so on.

I think we are not that far apart - I definitely like to tinker as well - but I had a boat that was closer to "ready to sail" when I got it. That makes for a change in perspective.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7146
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Postby GreenLake » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:01 pm

jdoorly wrote:I'd say the feeling is mutual, not to mention it's the 'dead' (winter) season for the forum and Scott has been setting records for interesting activity.

Rock on...

+1
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7146
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Postby hectoretc » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:02 pm

Funny... sure that'd be great. :)

As I typed and typed I kept thinking, I should really just put this under it's own topic, but there didn't seem to be a category that worked any better than any other... Maybe we can get some more thumbnails of people... makes it more personal.

Please feel free to relocate as needed..
Thanks
DS #6127 - Breakin' Wind - From the land of 10,000 lakes, which spend 80% of the year frozen it seems...
hectoretc
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis MN

Postby GreenLake » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:12 pm

I'll put it under "boat handlng" - that should fit, because you basically describe how you learn to sail. Let me figure out how I can get this split and moved.

Although your method, just to mention it, reminds me suspiciously of Prof. Hill's "think method". :D :D :shock:
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7146
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Postby ChrisB » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:16 am

Scott,

I enjoyed reading this post. You are obviously dedicated to soaking up all there is to know about this little boat. I have a few comments though. First, don't underestimate the benefit of having an experienced sailor with you on your first few trips. I learned to sail from my dad who learned from a friend. An experienced sailor is an invaluable resource for a new sailer. Plus, you will have additional "ballast" aboard in case the weather gets dicy which is always a benefit on a centerboard boat. Second, don't underestimate this boat's ability to sail under mainsail alone. I have sailed my boat (solo) quite a few times under reefed main only in 20+ mph winds. All you have to do is raise the centerboard halfway. Granted, the boat won't point as high as with the jib, but under those weather conditions who really wants to beat into the wind and chop in a 17' boat anyway? I wouldn't worry too much about class distinction and racing either. I have had my DSII for 19 years and even though it is still a class legal boat, its never been raced. Not racing hasn't diminished my enjoyment of either the boat or sailing one bit.

Keep those posts coming. I have learned a lot from you about the construction of the boat and have added some "things to do" in preparation for a four day camping cruise I'm planning for next spring.

- Chris
Chris B.
ChrisB
 
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Florida

Postby K.C. Walker » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:42 am

Scott,

+1 for what Chris said.

One of the coolest things about sailing for me is that there is no end to the game. No matter what level or at what age you play, there is always plenty to learn. And of course, it's really fun riding the wind.

As Chris said, sailing with experienced sailors can make a huge impact on your sailing. I make it sort of a mission to take people out sailing and hand the reins over to them. Coaching them a bit and letting them ride the wind is awesome. I don't think I'm alone in this, at all.

When I was a kid (grade school) I would go out on my best friend’s parent’s boat and his father would quiz us on all the parts of the boat. I'm sure that's what set my sailing fantasies in motion. I didn't sail again until into my 20s. A family friend would come out to sail his Snipe and would take me out. I learned so much from him. We're both in our 60s now but we still enjoy sailing together. I still learn from him but now it is a bit more of an exchange.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
K.C. Walker
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:50 pm
Location: North Stonington, Connecticut

Postby jeadstx » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:47 pm

I agree with Chris and K.C. Walker about having someone experienced sail with you the first few times. It helps to have someone who knows how things should work and may provide ideas for additional improvements. Like Chris, I learned from my dad. My dad started sailing in the late 1930's.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
jeadstx
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:10 am
Location: Dripping Springs, Tx

Postby hectoretc » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:50 pm

Thanks guys, appreciate the info and input.

I've started connecting with a couple of the DS'rs in the Twin Cities here, and last fall Skippa had invited me a couple times to meet at his boat and go out for a while and have some Q&A time. Unfortunately this fall was pretty hectic and it never worked out, but hopefully the invite will still be open in the spring and he can show me the ropes (lines I guess :) )
kokko lives up here too, and although we've not discussed it, I'm pretty sure he'd be willing to take me for a ride as well so I can get some more practical experience.

Our lake is pretty small (well below 1000 acres) and I'm president of the lake association (mostly cuz no one else would do it), so I'm fairly comfortable that I won't get in any trouble I can't get out of by simply swimming to the nearest shore for help. Unfortunately, the only other sailboat on our lake has been in the back of their property for about 10 years. I think the kids inherited it from their folks with the cabin. They were talking about selling it, which is what initially peaked my attention and I offered to buy it, but they never could figure out what they wanted, so that opportunity passed. But as part of that, I'd crossed a mental line and was on a quest to get one and that's what brung me to where I am today. Hopefully, once I get mine out there and blowing around a bit, maybe I can incite them to do the same and we can have a two boat regatta. (I could lend someone my 11ft. and make it a threesome) Should be hilarious...

I'll welcome anyone to come out and sail with me, but I'm at the wrong corner of the city to impose on my local sail-friends to trek out to our lake. I'll do some ride alongs with whoever will have me, and will learn the rest by doing. When I get confused, I'll either call someone or post here for guidance.

Thanks again!
DS #6127 - Breakin' Wind - From the land of 10,000 lakes, which spend 80% of the year frozen it seems...
hectoretc
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis MN

Sailing MN

Postby kokko » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:42 pm

We can certainly plan to get together in the spring. Truelove normally goes straight from the fairgrounds to Hayward, but I would be willing to head your way. You could also come to wbl and sail Surprese, my Catalina 22
DS1 Truelove
kokko
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:17 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Postby Skippa » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:38 pm

The invite is still open Scott, As was mentioned previously, One of my greatest joys in sailing is bringing someone new onboard. I have always maintaned that there are no passengers on my boats, only crew.
there is nothing like seeing the light go on when you see the sailing bug bite and new crew member.
Lottory for bouy's is in April for my lake and splash will be early to mid May. Looking forward already.
Kevin
Skippa
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:49 pm
Location: Eagan Mn

Postby hectoretc » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:07 pm

Greetings all,
It’s been an interesting week for the good ship Breakin’ Wind and her mighty (albeit inept) crew of one (that would be me).

Two sailors from the Twin Cities area Skippa and Kokko had exchanged messages with me late last year and had offered to take me out on their respective boats for some practical experience before I tried it on my own, but we weren’t able to get schedules together (on my part) and then winter intervened.
This spring, both have again offered to take me out for some instruction and training and I was able to connect with Skippa this past Tuesday afternoon for a few hours out on Nauti-Cal on a Twin Cities lake.

It was a blast! We sailed from the dock (no motors, no rowing) and he quickly showed me how the sheets work, how the sails interact, how to tack, and how to carefully jibe. He then gave me the rudder and we sailed around the lake, in very light air, but caught a few fun gusts and it was very very nice. Skippa offered suggestions on things to try and helped me avoid doing anything too foolish (Thanks Kevin)

So… feeling my oats having now conquered the art of sailing, and wanting to reproduce, and hopefully internalize the pointers Skippa had passed along, I decided Wednesday (yesterday) that Breakin’ Wind was ready to cut the dock tethers and make for open water. Unfortunately there is a bit of difference between deciding to do something and actually doing it.

Wind for one. When I was out with Skippa, we had a nice easy 5 mph breeze with a few light gusts. I’m going to say we left the dock with a crosswind, although I’m sure there is a nautical term for that (beam reach? – can you do that from a dock?) Not-withstanding, Skippa set the sheets, and Nauti-Cal moved on out smooth and sure. My dock aligns due south in a quite small bay, and the wind yesterday was from the south about 10 mph gusting a bit higher but not much (according to my WindFinder iphone app). Even I know you can’t sail directly into the wind so I rigged my sails as Skippa had done, only left my sheets loose, plugged in my trusty trolling motor, released my dock lines and started heading out into the lake, and moved about 10 feet before a very slight angular gust caught one if the sails enough to turn the bow just a tad, and then it was a very quick 180 and a short trip to land. Fortunately into the grass (weeds) rather than the rocks.

So having now gained the experience that you can’t move against the wind even with loose sheets, I dropped the sails, spun the trolling motor around and backed away from the shore. A fortunate lull in the wind allowed me to pirouette, point the bow windward (again) and I was off to the lake. I motored out, what I thought was a safe distance, shut off and raised the motor and then went about trying to again raise the sails. Which takes longer (or maybe just seems so) on the water than when tied to the dock. By the time I was just about there, I realized I’m plummeting toward the shore yet again into a very weedy section (where my trolling motor will not work) so I had to quickly douse the sails again, and motor out even further and try again.

Amazingly enough, this time I was able to raise sails, tighten sheets and navigate into an actual sailing mode before nearly running ashore, where I tacked (incorrectly… sorry Skippa) but came about more or less unscathed and was finally pointed at something other than dirt 100 feet away for the first time that afternoon.

For the next couple hours I tacked back and forth, trying various sheet settings, deciding I absolutely hate my mainsheet rigging (decided that after the first 5 minutes) and found after the first 10 that I was sheeting the wrong line on the jib. Windward sheet across the mast sort of a bad hove to position with enough slack to actually almost end up with the tack in the right place, just a very poor shape in the jib. After realizing that, and adjusting the sheets, things started to work much better.

As I said, I sailed back and forth working my way upwind for about 90 minutes and then decided to try a heave to exercise, and then to head back to the dock, and soon discovered how wing and wing works (not on purpose) but it was kinda fun, and as the distance to shore quicly closed I realized I could not dock with the sails up, so I turned into the wind, lowered the sails and motored back toward the dock. My last discovery was with all of the sail cloth flopping around (down but not stowed) it is very hard to even see the dock, and docking any boat with a tail wind can be a challenge. I managed to not ram the dock, and to drape a line over a dock cleat and ease into a brake rather than trying to slam stop a 500+ pound boat on a dime (thanks again Skippa for that story) and all things told, we came away with no gashes, no capsizes, no MOB drills and fortunately no one else around to point and laugh (that’s why we do these things on Wednesdays).

End of this story other than to again thank Skippa for the lesson and to warn Kokko that I am going to take you up on your offer for a sail too, (unless you want to retract if after this story).

So now the inevitable questions…
1- How does an experienced sailor launch into the wind… is there a better way to setup sails or do you really need to wait until you are far into the water before raising sails (assuming a solo sailor)
2- Docking downwind – Do you need to drop and stow sails out on the water? The visibility forward is very obscured by the jib on the deck. How do others do this?
3- Heaving to – my understanding is that you just push the rudder to the leeward side to Jibe without releasing the jib sheet, but my boat just kept turning and that’s how I discovered the wing and wing downwind run. Does that only work in high winds?
4- The rest will wait until my next sail attempt where I’ll work out a few more kinks on my own, or on Kokkos boat.
DS #6127 - Breakin' Wind - From the land of 10,000 lakes, which spend 80% of the year frozen it seems...
hectoretc
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis MN

Learning to sail

Postby kokko » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:06 pm

And you still have not responded to my offer!
DS1 Truelove
kokko
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:17 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Postby ChrisB » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:01 pm

Scott,

1. Launching into the wind can be difficult even for an experienced sailor. You need to size up the situation before you make the decision to try to sail off the dock. Is the dock far enough from the shore to put you in deep enough water to lower the CB and rudder? Is there room on one side or the other to sail from the dock at a 45 degree angle and not risk fouling other boats, docks, or the land? Consider sailing off under mainsail only. The boat is moving slower so things don't happen so quickly and it is easier to tack if you find you're running out of room.
2. When docking downwind I will usually position the boat upwind of the dock and take down the mainsail. Then I sail to the dock under the jib alone. I'm sailing much slower and I can fully ease the jib when I get to the dock. With the main up, the stays prevent you from easing the mainsail and the boat wants to drive toward the shore. In stronger winds, I take both sails down and sail to the dock under bare pole. There's a little gizmo for sale on the net called the "boat loop". I thought it was a great idea but too pricy so I made my own and I can tell you it makes quick work of snagging a piling when you are by yourself.
3. The trick to heaving to is to push the tiller leeward with the jib backwinded and the mainsail full or partially full. The main tries to move the boat, the rudder tries to turn the boat into the wind, and the jib tries to counteract the main and turn the boat away from the wind. The net effect is that the boat moves forward very little and sideslips to leeward. It takes some practice to figure out how much rudder and how much to trim in the mainsail.

-Chris
Chris B.
ChrisB
 
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:42 am
Location: Melbourne, Florida

Next

Return to Seamanship and boat handling

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests