Learning to sail

[DavidF]

Scott,

I think that I can answer some of your questions.

First, Bowline. Here in MN, I have only heard it pronounced Bo - Lynn', at least by sailors.

1. I am curious to hear what other Daysailer sailors say about how far much you let the sail and boom hit the shrouds. I let the sail hit the shrouds when going down wind. Your idea about putting a stopper knot in the main sheet seems logical, but sounds scary to me. I think that it is best to just cleat it off when the main gets to where you want it.

2. You want to point into the wind to raise the sails. The objective is to keep any pressure off of the sail while you raise it. This allows the sail to slide as smoothly as possible and lets you get the appropriate tension on the luff and at the foot. You can use this same technique if you see that you need some halyard or outhaul tension. Point it into the wind, tighten the line, and then fall off again.

2a. No great suggestions for you. You say that you are setting up under motor. I think that if you had some crew, leaving the motor on and having the other person keep you pointing into the wind would make it easier. That is pretty much what people do on big boats. I started sailing on bigger boats and I am still getting the hang of single handing in heavier air.

2b. You want the sheet to be loose (and the sail not loaded with air). This allows you to raise it quickly and not load it in a way that it was not intended to.

2c. I have always gone with main then jib, but maybe it doesn't matter. Since the main takes more work, I think that it is better to raise it first and not have the jib flogging on you while you do it.

3. Yes, point into the wind when dropping the sails. Reduce the tension on the luff, etc.
3a. By pointing into the wind, the boom will be running down the center of the boat and falls in a good spot when you drop the sail.
3b. I think that the order depends on where you are and what you are doing. If you are taking them both down, the order probably doesn't matter. I usually drop the jib first, but I haven't thought that much about why. Maybe the main first because when it is flogging around, things seem more chaotic? If I am going to dock, and the dock is upwind (or I can turn into the wind on the other side of the dock), I just leave both sails up. If the dock was dead downwind, I could see using only the jib because you can completely let it flog, but you may need to take the stopper knots out of the end of the sheets.

I have been sailing up to my buoy with both sails up, but the jib flogging, but I am thinking about dropping the main on the lake and then sailing up to the buoy under jib alone.

I think that you want to have the main sheet uncleated / loose when dropping the sail unless you are motoring into the wind and are sure that you won't be falling off at all. (someone on the tiller)

I think that your flying analogy is pretty good. To add to it, when you are sailing on a small lake or close to shore, you loose room/time for maneuverability. Kind of like flying close to the ground.

David.

[DavidF]

A couple of things that I forgot to mention...

I can definitely recommend sailing gloves when it is blowing. Tonight, I was out with some friends on an awesome sail. I had to dump the main pretty quickly in a few of the gusts, and gave myself a pretty good rope burn before I remembered to put my gloves on.

I was getting quite a bit of weather helm and thought that it was just due to the wind, but then noticed that the blade on the tiller had kicked up part way. i need to tighten the pivot bolt a little bit.

David.

[GreenLake]

Couple of thoughts while reading the recent posts.

Sailing gloves +1 (also great for late/early season sailing).

Stopper knot - had that recommended to me by an experienced sailor - the point is, you put it at the limit of maximal travel, since the boom can't (should never be able to) go further, the knot shouldn't get in the way of dumping the main quickly. (Just as long as there's no place that knot can get caught....). Cleating your main downwind, why not - you could put some tape on the sheet to let you know were to cleat - again, as the main is at the end of its travel, the normal considerations for having to lead it out of your hand don't apply the same way.

Wave action isn't a problem where I sail, so I let the sail touch the shroud, but not the the boom. Additionally, a bit of black tape on the boom helps with accidental contact.

You can reef / or shake out a reef while hove to.

Shaking out a reef is easier than putting one in. So, if in doubt, reef at the dock.

The jib will "pull around" the boat most easily, being so far forward. In a tack, you don't release the jib right away, it will continue pulling as you turn - you can even let it back wind (briefly) to help the bow come around, but if you overdo this, you loose momentum. Never pull the jib across before it is ready, you just slow the boat down.

Now, in raising / lowering sails. You should be able to lower your main in a hove to position. The wind will come in at an angle, but by letting the boom out, you still get almost no pressure on the boom. As the sail comes down, you can bring the boom in far enough to gather the sail.

After the main is down, the DS may not remain hove to (it needs forward speed, even if at a slow pace). If you let the jib go (it's backwinded while you are hove to), you may be able to turn head to wind long enough to pull it down.

In retrofitting, I've seen you pretty aggressive, therefore my advice. Don't mess with a downhaul for the jib, just get a roller furler. It makes the process so much easier and quicker and a furling system (unlike a roller reefing system) doesn't impact how the jib works. Essentially, it is designed for only two positions - fully deployed or fully furled.

[ChrisB]

Scott,

1. I would not recommed a figure 8 in the mainsheet except at the very end. You do not want anything that could potentially get caught on something else in the boat and prevent you from easing the main in a gust. I ease the main until it almost but not quite touches the shroud. You have to keep a close eye on the wind direction when running before the wind to prevent an accidental gybe. 2. If I raise sails transitioning from motor to sail, I keep the motor in gear at idle and lock the tiller to hold the boat into the wind (or just slightly off the wind). I always raise the main first and lower it last. The jib wants to pull the bow off the wind so it should be raised last and lowered first. 2a. It is normal for the boat to fall off. Remember, the DS is a lightweight boat with little momentum so it will quickly lose forward speed and fall off the wind without motor holding the bow into the wind. 2b. Sheets should be eased when sails are raised.
2c. Raise the main then then the jib. 3a. Bow into the wind when dropping sails is easiest. 3b. I keep the mainsheet loose but tight enough to keep the end of the boom from sliding into the water as the sail is lowered.

One final suggestion. While you are learning to sail and learning how your boat responds to various conditions, reef your mainsail sooner that most other sailors on any given day. As Greenlake said, its easier to shake out the reef if the wind dies down or isn't as strong as you first thought than it is to put the reef in on the water.

[Jett]

I have only one suggestion to add to an excellent discussion: I try to leave the dock, if I can, with at least one of the sails up when sailing solo...assuming no motor. It gives me more control and momentum when trying to raise the other sail, if I don't want to sail away from the dock with both sails up. I do follow the "main up first, down last" principle most of the time. Leaving the dock with any sail up, depending on conditions, is easier than trying to raise both sails out in the water, in my experience.

Of course, sometimes that's not a choice, so practice, practice, practice various strategies!

[GreenLake]

There's one beach from which I often sail, where it's possible to sail downwind along the beach almost all the time. In those situations I tend to use the jib first, to pull the bow away from land, then head upwind to raise the main. (On the beach the DS is bow to).

Moderate winds in the lee of the land help. As I turn the DS head to wind from going downwind, the jib's not sheeted tight, which otherwise might prevent that turn.

[hectoretc]

This is all fantastic information and I (and hopefully some other new sailors) appreciate it greatly.

One of the major causes for my launching from the dock concerns is a massive lily pad field around our dock area.



Welcome to Limestone lake in Wright County MN. Lake of the Lily Pad...

We've gone as far as to purchase a weed cutter boat (that we've lovingly named "lily") to clear and maintain a channel out to the lake, but maybe sailboats don't care about lily pads. I'm so used to worrying about fouling my motor propeller in the weeds, but sailboats don't have that issue. Does anyone have experience sailing through emergent weeds? Do they hang up on centerboards and rudders and stop the boat, or don't they impact a shallow draft boat like the DSII much?
Again, the challenge here is that "if" wind is available at my dock, it's generally from the south meaning I'd have to sail close hauled out at a 45 degree angle through the heart of the lily pads.

Thanks for your thoughts - Scott

[ChrisB]

Scott,

I do have experience (not good) with lake weeds. I sailed my boat for a couple of years on a TVA lake with a bad milfoil problem. Lake weeds foul everything; props, rudders, and centerboards. I got so bad one summer I had to careen the boat at the dock so I could clear the weeds from around the CB before I could get the board back inside the CB trunk.

[GreenLake]

raising the CB and rudder partially might make them less prone of trapping weed, but even small amounts of weed trapped on those foils can spoil the flow noticeably...

[DavidF]

Based on the prevailing winds and your location, you may want to consider a giant slingshot or steam catapult to get you out onto the lake...

[hectoretc]

Based on the prevailing winds and your location, you may want to consider a giant slingshot or steam catapult to get you out onto the lake...

Maybe something like a tow rope at a snow skiing hill. I could install an anchored bouy out at the edge of the weeds, with a large pulley (they use car wheel rims at some of the ski hills in Minnesota) and a continuous 1 inch rope turning on a powered wheel on shore. I just clip on to the rope and it slings me out into the lake (unless i forget to release in which case it's a quick trip back to shore). Wonder what the water patrol would think of that...
I suppose it could be wind powered since wind is the issue here...
Hmmm.....

[Breakin Wind]

Greetings all,
Been on vacation for a week, sailing at least once per day so I've had a chance to come up with a couple new (yet unvisited by me) questions.
First - We have an annual family reunion/gathering of sorts at our cabin each weekend after the 4th, and I unexpectedly found myself with several volunteers wanting to go for a sail. My wife did her best to warn them off, but the wind was down so I felt comfortable taking them out for an hour, but this introduced a new variable to the equation... more than one passenger. With one or two, I know that you both shift sides keeping your weight to windward, but with three... (you get egg roll?)
What I reasoned, is (luckily, the weights were fairly balanced), I left one on each side, had each one responsible for the jib sheet on their side, and merely shifted the tiller tender person windward with each tack. It worked but I'm not sure it's right in heavier winds. I just couldn't picture a crowd of people all stepping over and around the CB housing at the same time.
Expanding on that... I assume that with four, you leave one on each side more or less forward of the jib sheet tracks, and go back to two moving bodies with each tack or jibe as you would with two??

Thanks for any experiences you can provide about this for me. - Scott

[GreenLake]

I've sailed with 6 adults in about 10-12knt winds without problem.

First, with that much ballast, there's a lot less heeling to begin with, even if the weight is distributed evenly.

When we did five adults and one kid, earlier that same day, the way we solved that was to have the kid duck into the cuddy for the tack, and we shifted two of the adults against one from the opposite side, with the two in the rear staying put (they wouldn't have been able to make it across the tiller).

If you plan ahead, and take your tacks slowly (and don't sheet in before people have found their seats) that can work out quite well.

Last weekend, we were three, and the winds were such that most of the time we needed all three on one side, and at least two on the rail. Not a problem. So that the transom doesn't drag too much, seat the heaviest person forward, as long as that leaves a capable person on the tiller.

[kokko]

I sailed Truelove for just a month before adding ha topping lift. I did not like the boom dropping into the cockpit when I dropped the main. There are a lot of photos on this site, but basically it is a line from the top of the mast to their end of the boom