Heeling

Moderator: GreenLake

Heeling

Postby jsbowman6 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:09 am

Having owned and sailed an O'Day 22 since 1985, I'm comfortable with a steep heel and have proven it will only spill air from the sails and turn into the weather. How about the daysailer 2? I've had her out on a gusty day and felt it heel more than I felt it should, so dropped the jib to remove power. And if it does capsize, how about turtle? How long do you have before it flips upside down?
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Re: Heeling

Postby klb67 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:55 am

Sailing solo, I've had it heel until water just started pouring over the rail. I let the sheet out more and it rounded up and sat back down just fine. I think it takes a considerably stronger gust to heel that much with 2 sailors in the boat. I don't have reef points but should add them. It would let me sail longer solo. It's work sailing solo in stronger winds. I expect you are much better sailing reefed than full main and no jib. I think it takes a lot to get the boat to heel to the point of capsize - it's very forgiving. You are much more likely to capsize due to an unintended and unprepared for gybe or other substantial off balance situation that you are too slow to correct. I can't speak to the effort to turtle. Knock on virtual wood.
1976 DSII - #8039
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Re: Heeling

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:13 pm

Heeled the boat to the rail a number of times; haven't managed to capsize it. Be prepared to release the sheets -- if you rig ratchet blocks, you can hold them in your hand and don't need to cleat. Make sure your cleats release from all seating positions and that they can't "auto-cleat" a sheet that's supposed to run free.

(As this is general topic, I've moved it to "seamanship and boat handling")
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Heeling

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:18 pm

Lacking the ballast that an O'Day 22 would have means that "live" ballast and quick action are a bit more important in sailing a DS.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Heeling

Postby K.C. Walker » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:27 pm

For me, a completely different kind of sailing experience. The O'day 22 is more like sailing a motorhome and a DS is more like sailing a Miata. With the DS you are much more closely connected to the sailing experience and that can be quite thrilling. I like to sail mine fast and have it set up that way. So far, knock on wood, I also have not gone all the way over. I've swamped it three times, though, two times to the seat tops and one time all the way to the rails, that time the mast was just touching the water. Each time it was due to slow reaction time (maybe an extra second) under high wind conditions. All three times I had someone else at the helm and controlling the sheets. Yes, I have changed my behavior regarding teaching people to sail under those conditions. :-)

A friend of mine and I have sailed my boat a lot in high wind conditions and had many a thrill ride, with no problems. He and his wife have sailed a bigger boat with a lot of ballast for years, with no problems. He's actually a really good sailor. He decided that he wanted to get a DS so that he could have a boat that would be easy to launch and step the mast. The first time they took the DS out it was pretty windy, they capsized it, and it turned turtle. So, yes you need to be cautious with these boats until you get the hang of them.

Also, the sailing style between light centerboard boats and keel boats is different in that you trying not to let the centerboard boat heal over at all (it's not only faster but gives you more time to react). You need to control spilling your air by using your sheets. I don't cleat my sheets and constantly play them to keep the boat upright. Whereas in a keelboat you just cleat and let the ballast to the work.

Would I be comfortable go camping in a Miata? … Not really. I think the DS is a really fun boat but it's not what I would call real comfortable.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Heeling

Postby jeadstx » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:39 am

I have had my DS II heel over enough on more than one occasion to put the rail under water and fill the cockpit. I would release the main sheet to de-power and bring the boat upright. I sail with the main sheet in my hand, especially in high winds.

Having been one of those with capsize experience (twice), I have found the best way to prevent turtling is to put about two feet of foam in the upper two feet of the mast. My first capsize, I had not yet added flotation to the mast head started to sink as the mast filled with water. There was time to get a cushion under the mast head, I was shortly assisted by someone who jumped into the water from a passing boat to help. Since he really didn't have a clue how to right a sailboat, I just had him keep the mast head afloat. Second capsize I did have flotation in the mast head and the boat stayed on it's side until righted.

If you are concerned about how the boat behaves in a capsize, do a "controlled" capsize test in an area near shore. Have someone with you to assist if needed. I know several sailors with different small boats (15' to 20') that do this test.

At one point, O'Day actually had flotation in the mast and boom, I think in the late 60's, and the 70's.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Heeling

Postby jsbowman6 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:40 am

Thanks, mine is a 1975, wonder how to tell it has floatation in the mast?
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Re: Heeling

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:51 pm

Drill out the rivets, pull the mast head, insert pool noodle(s), wedge them, put mast head back on, rivet, done.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Heeling

Postby jeadstx » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:02 pm

Greenlake describes the best method to put flotation in the masthead.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Heeling

Postby talbot » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:47 am

If you're into numbers, you can put a clinometer on the boat. They don't cost much, and they tell you the angle of heel. Using a GPS to get my speed, I have found that once you get up to 15 degrees of heel or more, the boat is pretty much limited to its theoretical displacement speed (around 5.4 knots). You can perch a DS up on its side at 45 degrees, and be pretty stable as long as you head up in the gusts. Exciting, but very slow. You actually go much faster if you reef the sail and keep the boat down to 15 degrees of heel or less.
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Re: Heeling

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:13 am

Interesting data.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Heeling

Postby Interim » Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 am

I capsized in about 18knts. We were not reefed, my crew didn't get the jib released on time so it backwinded, and the ballast (me) didn't move in time. I think without all three errors we wouldn't have gone over. It took about 5 minutes for the mast to start going down, but we hung on the centerboard to keep it up.

But +1 on sailing flat. While there is a certain adrenaline to putting the rails in the water, it is more fun to get the boat on a plane. Sailing in those conditions is less forgiving, and you have to pay constant attention so it is a bit more draining. When the forecast is for 13knts or more, I tell the crew that this will not be a relaxing sail. If we feel vigorous, we go. If not, we mow the yard (never the better option).

--john
1979 DSII
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Re: Heeling

Postby jsbowman6 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:33 pm

Pulled the mast head today and low and behold, it already had foam in the mast. So went out sailing.
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Re: Heeling

Postby talbot » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:48 pm

I love your closing sentence. Sheer poetry.
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