DS1 HIN mystery....

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DS1 HIN mystery....

Postby oday414 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:53 pm

Greetings all. Recently purchased a 1960 DS1. Had her out for the first time on the lake the other day (first time for her in nearly a decade). Anyhow trying to make her as "original" as possible and I'm having a whale of a time trying to figure out class/hull numbers. The title incorrectly (I believe) states OHZ41423H760, which of course references a "homemade boat" but she definitely is not. That being said, I'm sure someone applied for a HIN number for her at some point an we ended up here. What can I do? Is there any place on a 1960 DS1 that I can find the original numbers? The plate is long since gone, and there is nothing on the transom. Any and all help would be beyond greatly appreciated. Thank you for stopping.

James
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Re: DS1 HIN mystery....

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:01 pm

You are probably out of luck, unless you can find any document that suggests a number. My state registration gives the original sail number (at least it's a figure in the correct range for the imputed age) but had a "random" year assigned.

414 is probably in the range for 1960, as 1500 was reached in 1963 (and they were doing about a boat a day for a while)

You can always contact the DSA secretary and ask whether 414 is claimed by any member. If not, they can assign that number to you. (Would be courteous to join the Day Sailer Association at that point).

http://daysailer.org
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Re: DS1 HIN mystery....

Postby SUNBIRD » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:15 am

Unfortunately, there is no absolute way to tell the model year of any O'DAY built prior to the 01NOV 1972 introduction of the 12-digit HIN requirement. Prior to then O'DAY gave every boat 2 numbers, a "HULL#" and a "CLASS#". Hull# referred to how many total O'DAY boats had been built, and Class# was how many of that class (Day Sailer). You can sometimes get an estimate of the age of the boat by comparing the Hull and Class numbers to another O'DAY that the year is known, but that isn't perfect! I used to own a 1969 vintage Widgeon, Hull# 22698 Class# 1791, going by the numbers that O'DAY published in their 1968, 69 and 70 Brochures, my estimate of 1969 seems about right. Seeing others listed in various places on-line further backs that up. However, I have found that sometimes comparing 2 Widgeons.... the difference in hull number does not always agree with the difference in class number, so......?
One problem is that boats are not listed by their owners consistently due to misunderstanding of the Hull#/Class# relationship. Since now a days we usually refer to hull# and HIN as the same, some boats are listed under the Hull# and some under the Class# (check out the DSA membership list, yikes!)

Anyway, back to the O'DAY HUll#s, my Widgeon (H# 22698 C#1791) was the 22698th O'DAY built and the 1791st Widgeon, so if you find a DS that has a Hull# near 22698, she is most likely also a 1969 vintage. The modern HINs will contain the Class# (my DSII is XDY10201M79E-D, right, 13 digits..... O'Day ran into a problem after they built the 9999th DS, no room for the "D" for Day Sailer in the 12-digit format, but XDY = O'DAY, D = Day Sailer, 10201 is my Class#, M79 means 1979 Model year, and E = December 1978 when she was built. Model years ran August to July, ie: Aug '78 to Jul '79 for the 1979 model year) Some of the earlier model years used a different format, with the last 4 digits indicating Month and Year of build, on those the year was January to December, so a code of 0573 would mean May 1973. Not sure if O'DAY used that at all factories for a while or only some, they actually built boats in both Mass and Calf at times and even had a plant In Kansas as well as at least one In Canada for a while (I don't think any Day Sailers came from Kansas).

The HIN on your boat (OHZ41423H760) is a state-issued one (for either home-made boats or those not originally issued a builder's HIN, most often because the boat was built prior to November 1972), issued by OHIO, most likely when she was titled and/or registered around 1989 or later when the Title requirements started in many States. These HINs are confusing since some will include the Builder's Class# or Hull#, some won't. Some will show the presumed Model or Build year, some will show the year the number was assigned (Mass uses the year the HIN was created for their State-issued HINs). Further confusion may come from the fact that the HIN format had changed again in 1984, so "H7" is the month and year of the certification (or model introduction year of a new boat) H = August and "7" indicated that the HIN was issued in a year ending in 7. So, I'd say the Title was issued in either 1987 or 2007.
I'd check with the experts in the DSA as to possible Class#s based on some breakdown of "41423", she could be O'DAY HULL# 1423 (HIN format 1984 and later has the 4th digit indicating "model" and "4" could indicate "sailboat" or "outboard-powered" in the Ohio registration codes? Of course, I hate to mention that "41423" may just mean that your boat was the 41423rd State-issued title in Ohio?
Those in the DSA that really know Day Sailers should be able to tell you little clues as to the vintage of your boat, and at least estimate year and Class#. I know some differences between the early years and later years, but not well enough to be sure.
Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"
1979 DS II, # 10201
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Re: DS1 HIN mystery....

Postby jeadstx » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:19 am

I've read that the hull number may be etched into the hull, either on the bow under the rub rail or somewhere near the chain plate.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: DS1 HIN mystery....

Postby GreenLake » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:08 am

SUNBIRD wrote:Prior to then O'DAY gave every boat 2 numbers, a "HULL#" and a "CLASS#". Hull# referred to how many total O'DAY boats had been built, and Class# was how many of that class (Day Sailer). You can sometimes get an estimate of the age of the boat by comparing the Hull and Class numbers to another O'DAY that the year is known, but that isn't perfect! I used to own a 1969 vintage Widgeon, Hull# 22698 Class# 1791, going by the numbers that O'DAY published in their 1968, 69 and 70 Brochures, my estimate of 1969 seems about right. Seeing others listed in various places on-line further backs that up. However, I have found that sometimes comparing 2 Widgeons.... the difference in hull number does not always agree with the difference in class number, so......?
One problem is that boats are not listed by their owners consistently due to misunderstanding of the Hull#/Class# relationship. Since now a days we usually refer to hull# and HIN as the same, some boats are listed under the Hull# and some under the Class# (check out the DSA membership list, yikes!)


One story, published here in a forum post, is that they had the sails done up (with the numbers on them) on a shelf, in bags. They would complete a hull, have someone stamp the hull number on it, then pull a set of sails from the shelf, copy of the numbers and that was it. Given that they completed a few hundred boats a year during the peak years, you can imagine that a system like that could lead to some fluctuation.

But, because the hull# counts ALL hulls, no matter the model, there's also the expected effect of the hull number increasing faster than the sail number (which only counts a specific model).

There is another possible discrepancy when it comes to sail numbers listed in the directory. If you can't determine your class (=sail) number for any reason, the DSA secretary will "assign" a number to you, or let you "claim" your best guess of a number -- as long as there's no other DS registered with the same number. I "claimed" the best guess for my boat in this way. There was no physical evidence of any hull or class number on hull or sails, only the nail holes where the builder's plaque had been affixed to the stern coaming.

However, the registration papers gave a "hull" number that was numerically in the range of sail numbers for the age of the boat (the real age as determined by looking a the "DS 1 Design Changes" spreadsheet, not the age listed in the paperwork. So I went ahead, took that number to the DSA secretary and it's now "assigned" to my boat (should I ever want to race it in a DSA-sanctioned event).
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Re: DS1 HIN mystery....

Postby GreenLake » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:10 am

jeadstx wrote:I've read that the hull number may be etched into the hull, either on the bow under the rub rail or somewhere near the chain plate.

That eventually became a legal requirement, but I don't think it was done before introduction of the HIN.
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Re: DS1 HIN mystery....

Postby SUNBIRD » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:47 pm

I should have been clearer when I mentioned a discrepancy in the difference between hull# and Class#, it would obviously make sense that the Hull# might increase more than the Class#, but what I had noticed was a Widgeon on which the Class number had increased MORE than the Hull #. In other words, the 2 numbers seemed to indicate that, say the Hull# (total O'DAYs built) had increased by 125 boats, yet the Class# (number of Widgeons only) had increased by 130 boats, Which brings me back to the fact that O'DAY had more than one plant and each had "batches" of numbers. Which could mean that Hull# 22050 was built before Hull# 21050 (or class# 1791 could have been built before #1691).
Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"
1979 DS II, # 10201
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Re: DS1 HIN mystery....

Postby GreenLake » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:12 pm

If they had multiple sites, then I suspect that they were focused on certain models (which are all lumped together in the old hull numbering scheme). That kind of batching makes sense, perhaps even for the different model lines in the same facility - who knows. The effect you note, would be explained if they also had "batching" for sail numbers and were drawing at least some batches out of order. The anecdote that was relayed here would account for that, and perfectly explains the situation you encountered: someone grabbed a "random" sail bag off the shelf and recorded that number after the fact, rather than having some system to keep the sails in strictly numerical order.
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