I'm older now but still running against the wind...

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I'm older now but still running against the wind...

Postby Breakin Wind » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:06 pm

Against the wind
I'm still runnin' against the wind
I'm older now but still running
Against the wind...
Bob Segar - 1980

Not withstanding a Minnesota winter that just wouldn't let go, this year has been so much of a better sailing year for me. I've changed from my weekly posting asking the great people here, "what should I have done when this happened" to now (more or less) knowing, but even more importantly, being ready, to do what needs to be done when something unexpected happens on the water. It's not a year without any challenges, but now I'll try 3-4 things before I give up and come here to again ask "what should I have done when this happened". But when none of those things seem to work... well here I am...

This is a 2 part question, but it all spawns from trying to sail out into a strongish headwind.
1- If you have to (have to) launch single handed from a dock into a straight in headwind (15+ kts), I know the only choice is to tack out, but from a dead standstill at a 16ft. dock, how in the heck to you prep the boat (what sails are set how), centerboard up/down? etc., what direction to point, and then push off, and find a way to make any kind of forward progress before you just blow into shore? Or can this simply not be done? There doesn't seem to be enough water between the end of the dock and shore to build up enough speed to tack. Anyone know any tricks for that scenario>

2- Assuming that can't be done... my next question goes back to electric trolling motors. I've read (I think) pretty much everything written here on trolling motors and there has been a lot of it, primarily focusing on speed and duration based on wiring, battery size requirements and weight, and often with comparisons to gas outboard alternatives. To the engineers or those who are really good at figuring out formulas for things. Is there anything known or that can be derived for a trolling motor thrust rating against a Daysailer frontal surface area, weight and opposing wind speed? In other words, taking a nominal (sails furled and/or down) 800lb (to pick a number) DS2 with a 15 mph headwind, how much thrust is needed to cancel the wind (assuming every lb. of thrust beyond that results in forward progress of some kind).

I've had 4 blowy days this season, wind straight into the dock, that I've tried to sail out into, and 4 times I've found myself against the shore. Twice I was able to throw a line to our dock and get back, once I had to get towed out from being hung up on shoreline tree, and once I simply got out and pulled the boat along the shore back to the dock. I don't know now big my electric trolling motor is, but clearly not big enough.

Anyone with thoughts or solutions to these two headwind based questions?

Thanks - Scott
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Re: I'm older now but still running against the wind...

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:57 pm

Boy, that's a tough challenge.

Let's take the motor question first. Here's one equation for wind pressure.

Wind Pressure in Pounds per Sq. Ft. = .0053 Wind Speed Knots²


Which right around the wind speeds you are assuming gives about 1lb / sqft. The actual force depends on the drag coefficient for hull and rigging, but that's merely a nicety, because no matter how small that coefficient is, a moderate increase in the wind speed will make up for that, because the square will get large quickly.

You can directly compare whatever estimate of exposed area to the trolling motor's thrust rating.

Now, if the wind comes at any angle other than directly in front, your bow will be blown sideways unless your motor can sustain speeds that would make the CB efficient enough to resist the sideways force. I'm not going to calculate that, but at that point your best bet would be a bow thruster (or bow mounted motor, so it would pull, rather than push).

I've tried to motor in 10-12kt winds and found that near impossible (40lbs thrust). Any small deflection and the bow would be blown around. I finally raised the jib and tacked normally, using the motor to turn the boat into the wind (because the main wasn't set). Just a short distance, but this "motor sailing" was weirdly effective. At the time I simply didn't want to raise the main for a few hundred feet, nor did I want to go into full sailing mode, with heeled boat, hiking etc.. I have no idea, whether this would have worked in a true 15kts wind.

As for sailing, you'd want the CB down, because that's the only way you don't drift sideways. The lift produced by the CB depends on the speed through the water, that's another reason to build up speed. As for tacking up a narrow channel, perhaps you could find a way to establish (in the open water) how tight a series of tacks you can manage in certain conditions.

You can always upgrade your motor (but perhaps that's too easy?). If you want to stay electric you could try a beefier trolling motor clamped to the bow, use a Torqeedo outboard, or, if you have the inclination, recycle an old outboard by converting it to electric. There's been a nice article on that somewhere on the net, if you can find it.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: I'm older now but still running against the wind...

Postby jdoorly » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:29 am

I have tried both a 35 and a 55 pound thrust trolling motor and I found virtually no difference, they both suck at manoeuvring a DS in wind or current. Just not enough power available.

When launching into the wind the problem, like GL said, is creating speed for steering before you hit some obstacle. Don't try to launch directly on a beat (i.e. 45 degrees from the wind) head out on a close reach (50-75 degrees) to get up speed then come up to a beat and/or tack.

If you are using a trolling motor to leave the dock try backing into the wind for a distance then coming around onto coarse. The wind presses more on the bow due to its higher height and this can cause steering frustrations. But when you motor in reverse the boat will naturally "weathervane" allowing you to steer much better in reverse. But take your first opportunity to turn around, we don't want this trade secret getting out!

Also like GL said this can be a tough challenge, and sailing boats do often and easily humble us all.
DS2 #6408 "Desperado"
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Re: I'm older now but still running against the wind...

Postby K.C. Walker » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:23 am

I'm wondering if you could use a mooring line like is used in Wellfleet Harbor which has 12 foot tides. We used a loop of line, approximately 150 feet out that had a block on the mooring tackle. In our situation we were pulling the boat in from the mooring to the beach and back out where it would float at low tide. In your situation you might be able to pull your boat out to an anchor further off your dock to give yourself a little more room to get up to speed before being blown ashore.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: I'm older now but still running against the wind...

Postby ChrisB » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:33 am

Scott,

Have you tried combining options 1 & 2 and motorsailing from the dock using the mainsail and your troller? When I get into a tight channel with my boat, I find that taking down the jib and adding a little power (just above idle on my outboard) allows me to make a series of quick tacks. The extra power from the motor keeps the necessary forward momentum to maintain steerage through the tacks and also allows me to pinch the course a little higher than the boat would normally sail. Even with 1/2 or more of the main luffing, it still provides some drive to the boat. Not having the jib means you can tack quickly and not have to bother trimming the jib to each new course. As others have already said, you have to have the CB at least partially down to check sideslip.

- Chris
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Re: I'm older now but still running against the wind...

Postby dannyb9 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:44 pm

if it were me i'd try this: rig the boat with mainsail only. move the boat to the back of the dock. uncleat the aft dock line. uncleat the bow line. move back to the shroud and walk the boat forward along the dock as briskly as you can. at an opportune moment, step into the boat and bear off into a broad reach. aargh! ( i'm 66 yo) maybe its time to walk against the wind : )
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Re: I'm older now but still running against the wind...

Postby Breakin Wind » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:29 pm

Thanks - these are all great suggestions and as ChrisB suggests, maybe various combinations of things would make sense to try too.

GL - I was actually thinking about upgrading my motor but before spending the money on a larger thrust model, wanted to ask here to be sure it would make a difference. It sort of sounds like maybe not. I could go to a gas motor but new ones are so expensive... and I really don't want to add a gas can to the mix. Maybe I'd have to go with a used one for financial considerations and would really prefer one that has the gas tank integrated into the motor. I don't even know if make those any more, or if I'd have to find a good running antique.

Jay - I love the idea of backing out into the lake. At least if it didn't work, I'd be pointed the right direction to get back to the dock. This is definitely on my "try it" list.

K.C. - I'd actually thought of a buoy anchored out at the end of our lilly pad field. (part of my challenge is our narrow channel through 200 ft of lilly pads). I need to research the Department of Natural Resources rules for Minnesota on placement of private buoys. I suspect 200 ft out is not allowed (nothing useful is allowed in MN) but I'll investigate. Also, I'd have to figure out how to either keep the line floating or completely sunk when not in use so we don't find a way to get our powerboat propellers tangled in case we drift off center in our channel.

ChrisB - Great idea about using the motor with the mainsail only to provide the initial umph to get some momentum going.

Dannyb9 - I can easily try your idea too... Thanks

I'll report back after these trials and let you know what worked or didn't.
Greatly appreciate the ideas, I'll try them out next time I have another strong southern wind day!.

Thanks - Scott
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Re: I'm older now but still running against the wind...

Postby ChrisB » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:34 am

Scott,

The first OB I had on my boat was a 1.5 hp Cruise-N-Carry. This was an ultra light weight, piece of crap motor intended for use as a dinghy motor for larger boats. Rating it at 1.5 hp was very generous as I found that with any significant headwind or chop, it was difficult to maintain control of my DS. When I decided to replace it, I knew I wanted more hp. On Craigslist, I found a very slightly used Nissan 3.5 hp, 2 cycle with integral tank for $550. It holds a liter and a half of fuel in the tank and will run about 45 min at full throttle on a full tank. Most used motors are standard shaft length however.
Chris B.
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