DaySailer.org Forum

Funny thing about human intuition... We are often wrong...

I used to think that is would be poor form or embarrassing to show up at a dock in hopes to be picked up as crew on someone else's boat. The few times I have sailed prior to boat ownership, I always waited for an invite, as I did not want to seem intrusive or impose. That is part of the reason why I bought my boat, as I though there would be some form of liberation from this, apparently mental debacle. However, days like today I wish I could have found that person wanting to crew up on my boat.

It is really a shame that the "yacht clubs" have not found better ways to make money than over-inflated memberships that become very exclusive by the nature of their price. It is counter productive to the camaraderie of "regular folk" that needs to exist in the sailing community. I bet sailing would thrive again if it were more accessible... Find a way for the guy with the boat that wants to sail, but cannot without sufficient crew... to find the guy who cannot afford a boat but wants to sail. I know someone is going to throw out a crew finder website, but I am pretty sure that does not work, but in some limited situations. This is probably especially true for the younger crowd (that probably counts most as far a promoting the sport), as the younger generations seem to be less and less resourceful.

Sorry I had another rant moment... What do I know, lol.

OK, that's a whole conversation by itself, so I moved it to a new topic.

It totally get you (I think). I didn't know how "the system" worked, except that I knew about those expensive (and exclusive) yacht clubs. And my attitudes about clubs being not that far from Groucho Marx, and my willingness to spend money on exclusivity about zero, that kept me on land. I knew of, more than knew, one guy who was plugged into the sailing scene, and could have introduced me to boat owners, but felt uncomfortable about the idea. And, in retrospect, big boats would not have been a good starting point.

After a long time watching from shore, I came across a convenient place to launch a small boat, and bought a tiny rowing dinghy with sail kit; small enough for one person to drag or two people to carry across the beach. Barely big enough to fit, but only one sail, and, we a full-size adult as ballast, surprisingly stable. I spent a couple of years in that boat getting my bearings and sorting our some ideas about sailing. I prefer experimenting over being taught, but that should not come as surprise.

One day, a friend came and said "I've found your boat". Didn't know I really needed another boat just then, but he acted as surveyor and graciously helped out with the maiden voyage and to get me to the rudiments of sailing with a jib. That's when I started with the DS. The funny part is, that I was so used to single handing that small boat, that I didn't hesitate to sail the DS on my own (or with very young crew) almost from the beginning. Not exclusively, mind you, over the years I've had 80 different people on board, from passengers to occasional to steady crew.

Fast forward a number of years, and I get a bit tired of the "lone wolf" routine. So, I check out the local "racing" scene. "Racing" has to be in quotes, because the best event in town isn't a serious race. It's (almost) a free-for all, definitely low on rules and exclusivity and equally definitely focused on the fun of it. I'm told that at the height of the season, they never draw fewer than a hundred boats, from 9' to 70', cat rigged to schooner. No membership necessary, you just show up....

I had known about this for a while, but somehow never "managed" to be out on the water at the right time. So, I grabbed the chance when, one year, they held an opening party. Got to meet the "competition" and a potential crew. Before I knew it, I had sailing friends - a whole group of them. And they own other boats, so now I'm out on the water on big boats too, or crewing on other dinghies. (And the big boats are members of a "yacht" club: on paper, no clubhouse, no exclusivity).

Fast forward a few more years, and I'm about to push off the dock when someone (I can't see them through the mainsail that stubbornly refuses to hoist) tells me: "your reef line is fouled". There's someone just sitting there, with the full appearance of someone whose ride hasn't shown up. But clearly knowledgeable about sailboats. So, we take a chance and add her as a third wheel to the crew for that evening's race. Means our fight for last place becomes that much easier , but we've never had as much fun, and so the circle closes.

I think that's how sailing is going to be built - by people seeking connection, looking for shared time on the water, exchanging experience, inviting others in, until someone comes along who sticks around. And small boats, like the DS are definitely in the center of this, because of their low overhead and their flexibility. Sure, a Laser is smaller, but where do you put your crew, or the passengers?

As for hooking up with people of like interest, the modern tools give you all the convenience. The last person I invited on board came via facebook. Any place that has a bit of a sailing scene has one or two preferred (or simply successful) online methods the locals use to find boats or crew. Or, you could auction off a dozen "afternoons on the water" at your school, church, or wherever people do auctions. Give a limited range of dates and encourage the lucky bidder to pass on the voucher if they can't make it themselves. One way or the other, you're going to come across someone who's been looking for this and will stick with it on a regular basis.

I know people who have sailed a dinghy in the local "race" for over 20 years - I think the fact that there's a regular schedule has more to do with the success of this than the competition. It's much easier to meet regularly than having to figure out whether it will happen or not. The same is true for yearly or monthly events. Perhaps you are part of a group that will start something like a regular cruise or daysail. In that case, best of luck.

Often when I need crew I have difficulty finding someone. For the Wurstfest Regatta, my crew backed out (for medical reasons) a week before the race, although he had loaned me a spinnaker and I got the boat rigged to use it for the race. I had possible crew lined up for the first day of racing, but they cancelled on me as well. Just as well, I had trailer problems and didn't get the lake until mid afternoon. I had crew for the 2nd day, but since I didn't end up rigging and launching the boat, I had my crew sail with Salty Dog since he was racing single handed. He told me he could get used to having crew.

Last year at the Wurstfest Regatta my crew back out the day before the event. A sea scout looking for a crewing position on the dock sailed with me.

Each year for the Tx200 I put out a request for crew for the event. Anyone near me that wants to do the event have their own boats. The crews I've had for the event the past few years have all been good. This year, I'll be looking for crew again as my crew from last year and the year before are now planning to sail their own boats.

As far as clubs go, I joined one in February at the lake. $35 a month is cheap enough for me. Although many ramps on Canyon Lake where I sail are free launching, the club allowed me to use a the marina ramp, have a dock to tie up to for day use, and access to their club house. The marina also has a good restaurant. Club money goes mainly to a party once a month. The club has helped me get crew on a couple occasions.

John

I was reading the rules for DS racing and it said that you had to have a crew to race. I did not know that. That may just be for DS events. I was looking for a regulation concerning the length of a whisker pole. it said not longer than 74" over all.

SD

I was having a mental reflection on my experience trying to inject myself into sailing. I dreamt about sailing for many, many, years before it actually happened. I love the water and always knew I wanted a boat. But boat acquisition is not straight forward and very expensive in many cases, especially if you do not know anything. At first a cruising power boat looks cool, as you can have a gang of people lounge on them, party, entertain, etc. I think that there is a part of everyone that enjoys the idea of entertaining.

But as much as I enjoy entertaining, the instant gratification that comes with power boats is not for me. At least I knew this ahead of time. I enjoy being active, and working towards an objective. You can ask my wife, family, and friends... If there is no project to do, I am bored and will find one. This in part naturally draws the concept of sailing to me. It is a way to take a leisurely activity, and merge it with a form of work and mother nature. Heck, maybe I am sick in the head for wanting to merge work and leisure... or maybe we all are in some sense... I think that the reward of having a great day out on the water must be way greater after sailing a boat vs motoring it. Not robbing other boaters of the concept of seamanship and/or water experiences in any way or shape, but such reward for your experiences to me seems to be more apparent for a sailor than other boaters... Again, my disclaimer... this is just the nature of my personality. Everyone is built differently, and not trying to degrade the power boat community in any way shape or form.

Considering the above statements, I was really frustrated with the concept of having to create perceived imposition upon others to have opportunity to sail when I could not afford a boat of my own. Even more so, I felt even if I could get past that emotion, I still was not welcome to the gather at a location for such opportunities, not being a member of a facility. Like most everything in life, we are taught it is proper to not impose. As GL related, this is simply a concept I could not overcome, that I found out later that is apparently a unique ambiguity in the sailing community. Skippers of boats want to sail with you, whether you know how to sail or not. All you have to do is want to sail. At least the sailors I have met seem to bend over backwards to make sure sailing is promoted. I was a little surprised at first as to how nice and willing other sailors are to help you, or go out of their way to sail with you. Most seem to really love the sport and want to promote it.

After meeting these these folks, considering the way the yacht club runs, I believe actually deters potential sailors from becoming sailors. I get it. Businesses will be businesses... But the yacht club is a core premise for gathering such individuals, yet does not support the mentality of the aforementioned sailor. This is probably an existing mental battle between club and sailor? Could this be because the yacht clubs have failed to evolve with the times? You would think that the yacht club would shift gears to make it more affordable to get bodies on premise at the club. Less about membership and exclusivity through monetary supremacy, and find a way to make up smaller amounts of money of other forms in volumes.

For instance, look at golf. Many courses have shifted from a "members only establishment" to "day pass invite". This allows younger golfers a place to hang out, at a nominal price in many cases. A lot of really good, even pro golfers tend to take these "junior" folks under their wing, and then the cost of things seem to disappear. Ask me how I know... My brother was one of those kids... I do not want to display the perception that I think someone should receive a handout, that is not the thought I want display . I just know that there must be many potential sailors that are passed up because of their economic status. Again, if you know how to find things then you can get past this... but how many people who know nothing... know where to begin looking? General docks and marinas are not set up for this kind of meeting opportunity. Yacht clubs are inherently setup of this...

Imagine a club that has 100 members that pay $1500 initiation fee and $200-$300+ per month... Basically what we have now...

Now imaging a "Physical" club location that has 1000 members and maybe even boats that members can use that cannot afford a boat, or the public can purchase a day pass or earn a club issued skipper license (through experience) to sail one of the club's boats. What if that membership was $300 per year or $20-$30 per non-member visit. Like a golf course... You still may not be able to go there every weekend as if you owned a boat, but you could at least have an occasional opportunity to sail or make friends with boats that wanted to sail with you... at an affordable price for nearly most.

I know the numbers are very rough, and a lot more thought would have to go into the budgeting of this. But the example is more meant to explain how to promote sailing/boating for everyone, not just the well off.

I know I would have been sailing a lot sooner if it were more accessible. The internet did not exist when I was a teenager.

I know what comes next. You are going to tell me about sailing cubs that cost $35 per month that organize events. The problem is that those clubs do not have a dedicated location or facility for people to go and hangout and/or meet other people and create opportunity. It is a club for existing boats owners, and folks that are familiar with the boating community that know how to use resources to find crew and/or become crew or create opportunity and meet in different remote locations for each event.

Maybe I am just playing devil's advocate or stirring the pot at this point, but I do think that this situation actually exists...

I bought my DS because of it's versatility to liberate me from the cumbersome financial responsibility of club/marina overhead of boat ownership, and actually get me out on the water... Where we should all be, right? It took quite some time for me to figure out that opportunity was there.

Salty Dog, a crew of two for racing a DS is for DS Assoc. type racing events. That does not apply to mixed boat racing. I find however, for a race it really helps to have crew.

DigitalMechanic, like you, I find no challenge with power boats. I need the challenge (or work if you prefer) that sailing provides for my enjoyment, which is one of the reason I like camp cruising events. I learned to sail when I was 16 (63 now) when my dad bought an O'Day Mariner in 1968. Dad had been sailing since the late 1930's and his previous boat he had sold in the mid 1950's. That was a National One Design that he had built after WW2. I never have gotten into the boat building however. I raced during the 1970's and never had a problem getting crew, also never had a problem finding someone to sail with for pleasure. I got distracted with horses (another challenging thing) for a number of years doing historic re-enacting in the early 1980's. Got back into sailing after my knees were shot and my horses got old in 2006 when I bought the DS II. Sailing was always trying to call me back to the water.

As I mentioned previously, I joined a yacht club that does cost $35 a month. They do have clubhouse to use and docks to tie up to during the day. I still trailer sail and keep the boats at the house, I do like the versatility of trailering. Although the club I joined does push racing most of the time (and I don't race much anymore, but want to race the DS some), the club does promote sailing with free sailing classes twice a year to anyone who wants to learn. They also provide Sunfish (I think they have 3) to those that want to play with those. They also have sailing activities that are not race related. This club is more on the lines that you write about.

John

The blazer and white cap crowd and the DS probably don't mix too well. And I can't see a great place for them other than as a vehicle for people who need an establishment to give them a sense of exclusivity and validate their sense of entitlement. The point is, they are a small minority, and for the majority of people who actually sail the reality looks very different. DM described that very nicely. Depending on the location you may have mostly independents, or virtual clubs, or small, inexpensive clubs or ones organized more around people cruising or racing or community centers or places where you get a "time share" in the club's boats. There seems to rather be a variety of models.

The nice thing about racing under class rules, it's that it's potentially an evenly matched competition and highlights the difference in sailing ability. The nice thing about "racing" not under class rules is that you don't have to try to conform. That whisker pole can be 75" and nobody would care. (Now, the DS with no restrictions placed on how to set up the running rigging is already relatively flexible, but you still need your boat measured. In a way, I'm glad I don't have to bother with that, but I accept that I can never place, unless only two people bring a faster boat that week. That' tradeoff is fine by me.)

Tim Webb wrote very eloquently about the non-racing experience just recently, and the way that a daysail cannot be run to schedule. About once a year, I do a daysail to an event, and I've had some times when I didn't make it, because the wind just didn't want to serve.

Point is, just as there's a mix of organizations, there's a mix of things to go for, when it comes to sailing. More scheduled (races) vs. less scheduled (daysail), more organized vs. less, more other boats (flotilla, race or raid) vs. fewer. I really notice when I do just one thing for too much, all the other ones look suddenly so much more attractive, and by then I'm ready to try something new and jump for the occasion.

I am glad to see that I was not the only one up burning the midnight oil... lol

This is a fun conversation, and some really good points have been made. Hopefully some kid that wants to sail will read this one day, and realize that he or she can save up $1k (or maybe even less) and become a boat owner/skipper if so desired. Like previously mentioned, I thought about sailing as a kid, and continued to as a young adult up until now. I probably talked about owning a boat for 15 years, and finally have my DS now. I think every year I would tell my wife, this is the year we are going to get a sailboat. I spent the majority of those years thinking that we were going to trade one payment for another (such as a car payment for boat payment). Something would always happen to prevent that... Life always finds a way to salt your budget... No pun intended... Well maybe. Once I actually figured everything out, and realized I could have a boat for a realistic amount of "cash", boat ownership came quick. The whole point is I cannot believe how ridiculously long it took me to come to that realization.

John, that is great that the sailing community is setup like it is near you. I bet you have an eclectic crowd out on the docks and water with you, that makes for great times at gatherings where it is easy to make great friends.

The blazer and white cap crowd and the DS probably don't mix too well.

GL... touche my friend! Like Filet Mignon and Kool-Aide? Or Mentos and Diet Coke? I think you are right, even if you could pony up the dough to become a member, you would have insecurities about rolling your boat through there to the ramp each time.

The guy I befriended that races boats is a member of a yacht club. I think that his team may share the membership payment to keep their racing boat there (can't keep them all in the driveway even if on trailers). He had me meet him there to sail one day. I clearly remember pulling the trailer through there (feeling slightly awkward), and hearing one the ladies on the Croquet green say "What does he think he is doing?", lol... Yes, apparently people still play Croquet? I probably don't do the story enough justice, but I am actually laughing pretty hard as I am writing this... I had a "beverly hillbillies" moment going. I am not going to lie... I actually loved it, because I felt like I was getting to be totally ridiculous. My friend kept telling me to not worry about this or that etc. Its cool to put the boat there, or park the trailer here and there... don't worry nobody is going to say anything to you, etc. Was a fun day. Maybe I will get to turn some heads again one day at "The Yacht Club", lol.

This is Yacht Club...
http://nbycnj.com/04photos.htm

This is me...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/6b/8a/e9/6b8ae98c0a8ff9e6b825455028e90003.jpg

Or...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmcsr0wt4wk

I ordered some material to make me a whisker pole. I figured I would check if there were any reg. for length on a DS. So I could make it reg. I don't think I will ever go to a DS race. They all seem to be so far away. And I have the wrong boat. But I figured it wouldn't hurt to be Regulation.

I once made a basketball goal for the kids. I looked in the encyclopedia ( now I'm telling my age) To see what the regulation height was. Same thing when I made my horse shoe pit. guess I'm just wired that way

SD

I got a pole from Forespar that is adjustable from 4' to 8'. http://www.forespar.com/products/twist- ... oles.shtml (Part # 404000; Pole Adj 4-8; Price: $118.45). I didn't get the pole specifically for racing, it's just nice to have especially when sailing downwind.

As far as boat ownership. When I got my DS, my dad asked me how I was going to afford to keep it at a marina (dad always kept his boats at a marina). I told him that part was easy, I planned to keep it on the trailer at the house and eliminate mooring or dock fees. Keeping the boats at the house also allows me easy access to work on them. As far as costs on my fleet (never intended to have more than one), only the DS and the Mariner cost much. The Beetle Boat Swan was free. I bought the Rhodes 19 really cheap.

John

From the DS specifications and measurements by-laws article...

https://daysailer.org/Resources/Documents/dsbylaw3.pdf

7.12. A maximum of two fittings may be attached to the mast for securing a spinnaker pole and/or whisker pole. The fittings shall be fixed in position no more than 48 inches and no less than 24 inches above Mast Datum. No portion of such fitting shall protrude more than 2 inches from the front of the mast.

7.13. A whisker pole or spinnaker pole shall not be more than 74 inches in length overall (fittings included). When in use, one end shall be made fast to the mast. A maximum of two poles may be on board.

DigitalMechanic wrote:This is Yacht Club...


This is me...

...

What, you can't see the resemblance?

I must say i like the very stylish bare knees on the guy on the left.... .

Anyway, when it comes to fashion, those are not my kind of hats.
This would be more like it:

Yes!!!! Thank you for that! You sunk my battleship, lol!