DaySailer.org Forum

Years of windsurfing and sailing Sunfish has had me shopping for a boat since 2005. Every spring I would comb through eBay and craigslist to see what was available. This year, I decided I didn't want to own a boat, I just wanted to go sailing, so I joined a local sailing club, taking a class toward the end of being able to rent their boats someday. Then someone gave me their boat, the 1975 Daysailer II about which I've been asking repair questions for the past month. The boat has been lovingly ignored for the past 30 years, meaning garage kept, but otherwise not maintained or sailed. While basically solid, it has a host of small problems that has kept me busy for the past month, reminding me of one of my reasons for not wanting to own a boat. Being gifted (or cursed) with patience and stubbornness, I've been plodding away, but having not yet seen the binary landmark of actually sailing her, I'm getting a bit weary of the long-term project.

From what I've read on this forum, I have little doubt that the time I have spent is unusual in any way, save perhaps for it being much up-front work spent prior to any rewards. It may help to consider some of the advantages of owning a boat, like being able to sail perfect weather or opportunity on short notice, go where I want, and bring guests, like my dog who, I am sure, will give me plenty of opportunity to practice rescue maneuvers. If the neighbors ask, just one more time, if I'll be sailing her this year, I may be inclined to become surly. Looking forward to sailing.

I feel your pain! I would add perfectionist to the list of traits that you describe, at least for myself. I did a serious overhaul on my boat, as well. It took way longer than I expected. However, I have had a good number of years of enjoyable sailing since that time. I also did some upgrades that made my boat lively and quick. I find it's a very versatile boat. It is great for single handing in most conditions and great for taking out one or two other people. In the past, I have spent a lot of time both windsurfing and in a Sunfish, so this is my big boat now. Though, I did just buy another Sunfish for harbor racing.

Maybe to ease the grumpiness with your neighbors you could just tell them you are yard yachting…

I've sailed on other people's boats, and continue to do so. The experience is different in some ways than I had imagined, and not surprisingly, depends on those very same other people. I enjoy the chance to learn from sailing with people who are more experienced, or have different experience and ways of doing things, as well as experiencing different boats and types of sailing. There's a definite aspect of being a 'guest', but also a definite absence of having to worry about maintenance.

For the DS, I used to keep a record of all expenses, purchase price as well as repairs, improvements etc. I stopped when I concluded that things tended towards an average that was relatively stable. Higher in some years, lower in others, punctuated occasionally by some larger expense, such as new sails, but always coming down to the same multi-year rolling average. (Same with time spent doing the maintenance).

Now, how much effort / money I spend on boat ownership on a per trip basis, that figure depends, of course, on how often I take out the boat. If I just sit and wait for perfect conditions, I won't take out the boat very often, and each trip gets rather expensive.

A while back, I made the decision to join the local beer-can races (a non-handicapped, mixed fleet event). One obvious difference is that races are scheduled at a fixed time each week. With few exceptions, that means sailing whatever wind (and weather) - the total opposite of waiting for perfect conditions. Naturally, the effect was that I took out the boat more often, enough to make the long-term average trend up (so each trip got cheaper).

Another effect was that I learned how totally unreliable forecasts can be. The models may well accurately represent the overall state of the atmosphere, but they have a difficult time predicting what will happen all the way down at the surface and in a particular location. I've pulled up to the dock in a perfect calm (mirror sheet on the water) and by the time I'm actually in the boat, ripples are everywhere and once we are on the water, there's actually a decent wind to sail in.

There are some local outfits that rent sailboats. I've done that, and it's fun for a change of pace. Financially, it comes out to about the same. If I sail a lot, and take longer trips in a given year, owning a boat is cheaper, if I sail just a handful of times, and short trips, renting would be cheaper. (Neither of this accounts for the fun part of tinkering on boats - for some people, that's the main reason to have one).

So, if you feel that you are stuck with an expensive maintenance nightmare, the remedy is to get the boat in the water (even if not yet in optimal condition) and get some use out of it. And while owning your boat makes it possible to wait for perfect conditions: don't! Go out anyway!

If it makes you feel better, it took me about 6 months of repairs before I had a successful first trip out. I tried many times but always learned about something new that needed to be corrected/fixed/replaced each failed trip. Once you get past that hump, and get the boat the way you want it... It will be worth it. In comparison to others, the DS is a very inexpensive boat to own, and the wind is free of charge so you can always afford to sail once the boat is providing you a certain level of comfort. The thing that keeps me up at night is the outboard of all things, but I do not have the option to launch/retrieve without it where I live. The boat, even with it's minor problems and/or flaws, is very seaworthy.

For me, half the fun is working on the boat. All the sanding, buffing, replacing, repairing, is time that my mind is not at work, on bills, or the dailyness of life. I may not be on the water on those days I'm working on the boat, but my mind certainly is. Because I trailer my boat, an outing is at least half of my day. If I don't have the time, I can always head out to my back yard for some tinkering and a little mental escape.

I would suggest getting your boat to a point that it will leave the ramp and return you safely. It doesn't have to perfect. You just need to get her on the water. Save the smaller stuff when you have a little time to kill or the weather isn't cooperating. As for your neighbor, I would suspect he doesn't even own a boat, or he wouldn't even ask such a ridiculous question. Next time he brings it up, just respond that it will be on the water before his will be.

K.C.,
Yes, I can add perfectionist to the list. Doesn't mean I achieve perfection, but I have a hard time with half-fast solutions. Sunfish are a blast. I like the yard yachting comment.

GreenLake,
I did not mean that I would wait for perfect conditions, just that owning a boat allows me to take advantage of perfect conditions since my boat is always there, as opposed to a club boat, that requires one to schedule to time slot well in advance.

Shagbark,
I have used that very comment on my neighbor already. There's more backstory to the neighbor stuff, but nothing that needs to be committed to a public forum. I will say that a day on the water has a certain peaceful connection to nature quality about it - one of the reasons I love sailing and have no interest in power boats. Other people can either add to that feeling, or wreck it.

I bought my boat in "working order" so I could get right in the water. I'm not a perfectionist, but I do like working on things. In part, it helps me understand them.

My boat has a rudder that fills with water, a centerboard bolt that lets in a half gallon each time I sail, and old jib, unused genoa or spinnaker car tracks, and three colors of yellow paint on the hull. So what. I put it in last week without a Cunningham or boom vang, and sailed across the lake at 6.5 to 7.5 knts. It's a blast.

I work on boats in the winter. I keep a running project list through the summer, and when we're done sailing, I prioritize and start working through them. This week I'm thinking about a spinnaker. That seems more fun than matching paint.

--john

I finally got her on the water. It wasn't the best first outing, but it was not quite a comedy of errors either. Running late made me a little idiot-prone. I had to raise the mast three times since I forgot the wind indicator and the jib halyard the first time then, after raising the mast, I noticed that I forgot the main halyard. There's a few obvious items for the checklist. Given the prevailing westerlies, the dock is usually on a lee shore, which makes it a pain to get off, but we managed. By the time we got under way, what seemed too windy for a first trip turned to such light air that it was impossible to get enough speed to turn through a tack. That and the eddies and shadows from the trees on the island made for one of the most difficult sails I've ever had. The boat really seemed to prefer a port tack, and had a very hard time sailing close-hauled on a starboard tack. It actually seemed easier to sail to windward with the main let out as if trimmed for a beam reach. That migh† be due the the bent mast. It seemed often there was not enough speed to answer the helm, but enough beeze to slowly push us to the lee shore. Getting back to dock involved more paddle than sail.

The sail trim was pretty much crap. It didn't seem possible to fully raise the main - there was a small bunch of sail at the gooseneck. I'll have to check my halyard's eye splice to see if it runs free through the masthead pulley. Similarly, the outhaul seemed to never really make a tight foot. I think a pulley at the boom end would do much better than the hole in the boom end casting. While I had the battens in the boat, I forgot to insert them. Not wanting to drop and raise the main, and not wanting to temp fate on the already torn batten pocket ends, I left them as passengers. The net effect was a very loose sail, which was probably fine in such light air.

I managed to snag my sandal on the cleverly camoflaged dock cleat, raising a nice welt on the arch of my foot. Seems they could paint the cleats in a contrasting color. It's much easier to back a trailer straight down a ramp in the daylight with a boat on it, than in the dark without a boat. While the light and dark are obvious, the boat makes it a lot easier to see which way the trailer is headed than if all you have to look at is the winch stem. It's almost impossible to see the end of the mast sticking way past the towing mast support, while your friend's car headlights are shining in your face, but luckily my forehead performed a crude bit of echo-location by bashing into it. The Windex tang did only minimal damage. Not sure how I managed the groin pull - either the slimy ramp or catching my fall after the dock cleat snag.

My 2004 Honda Civic did a fine job or towing and launching. Towing was no more of a load than a car full of adult passengers. All-in-all a lot of work for a little hamstrung sailing, but good to get her out. Hopefully, subsequest trips will have less frustration given experience and better preparation, especially with regards to the running rigging. At 115 acres with a big island, the lake seems too small and squirrely for good sailing. On the other hand, I don't think this trip has instilled the confidence required to make Lake Michigan my next destination.

Where do I start?

It was your first time.

For next time, leave as many halyards and lines (and sails) connected to the various spars as possible. Cuts down in rigging time and prevents "left-over" lines in the boat with the mast up

You'll get there! (It was your first time).

One thing I don't have difficulty with is tacking in light air. The DS is great, it's so heavy that once it gets moving, you can coast through a tack on momentum. However, there are some caveats:

1) don't stall your foils.
1a) rudder - don't oversteer. Yanking the rudder over too fast will stall it and drag it through the water like a barn door. Instead of spinning the boat on a dime, go for a well-defined curve. If you stall your rudder, straighten it out, let the flow re-establish itself and then try to steer again.
1b) centerboard - if you lose flow over the CB you will simply drift sideways. Always keep moving.
1c) Don't pinch! (Avoid the temptation to point higher than possible. All you will do is stall your foils and you will drift sideways)

2) keep your sails drawing
2a) don't let the jib go immediately. It will continue to draw on the old side well into the turn. Let it go when it wants to come over, and don't sheet it home until it has come over by itself.
2b) Backing your jib on the old side will help push the bow around (true) but at a cost of precious momentum. This should a tactic for other kinds of conditions (chop, etc.) where there's otherwise enough wind.
2c) Backing your jib on the new side, will prevent you from completing your turn and slow you down. 2 for 2.
2d) Don't sheet home your jib too aggressively, let the DS build up some speed a few degrees below your target upwind heading.

Almost every time I come to the dock from an afternoon's sailing, I have to tack upwind in narrow channel while the wind is dying (and blanketed). I really think the DS handles those conditions surprisingly well: I have been known to pass lighter dinghies on that stretch, mainly by coasting directly upwind for a boatlength or two before completing each tack. (The power of momentum).

You'll get there! (It was your first time).

Before I would be comfortable to attribute anything to your bent mast, I would like to have you tell us more about it. With the boat on the water, if you weigh the main halyard down with a shackle, where does it touch the deck in relation to the mast? It should be some distance behind the mast in a straight line. Is it over to one side? How much? Can you correct for any deviation by adjusting rig tension? If that's the solution, is the adjustment within reason?

Outhaul. There are two holes at the back of my boom casting. Original setting was to tie the OH to the sail, run it through one hole, run it back through the sail, through the other hole and forward to the cleat. That gave a nice purchase. Next, I tried lashing a double micro block each to casting and sail. That worked well, for the purchase, really smooth, but the blocks would touch before I hit maximum stretch on the foot. So now I use one block, but run the line through the grommet the sail. Bit more friction than two blocks, but enough room to stretch.

Mainsail. I ended up replacing the shackle at the top of the main with a knot. Gave me an extra inch.

I don't think I have a definite conclusion as to why your main wanted to be trimmed for off-wind, but perhaps you were sailing off-wind without realizing it. See the following:

Wind indicator. If you forget again, sail without one. It's good practice. Also, these things can be asymmetric if you don't take care aligning them. So you think you are sailing close hauled on both sides, but really you aren't. I always watch where the jib luffs, or where the tell-tales flutter (you have those, correct?) and, if necessary, re-calibrate where I expect the tail of the wind indicator to line up on each tack. I've found, though, that watching tell tales you can get tricked into sailing too deep, by 10-15 degrees. They work best if you are truly sailing close-hauled. I wonder whether that happened to you. I had to have someone point this out to me from another boat once, because I couldn't tell from inside the boat that day.

You'll get there! (It was your first time)

I can see the rollers in my rearview mirror. At night, why not tape a bit of reflecting tape on the supports that should give you a nice spot to line up to (even if lining up means hiding it from view behind the bow support and winch pole).

I am pretty new to sailing, and when I started out a year or so ago I was trying to only trim the sails to get power. On the few bigger boats I have crewed on in the past, it seemed like the way to produce power, and instinctively operated that way once I had the DS. However, once I was in the skipper's seat I have found out that my original idea of how it was supposed to work, does not really work that well on the DS, and is actually time consuming which equals slow. Not 100% sure if that is what you are doing from the comments you provided, but here is what I have been doing and seems to work for me to get speed and keep speed up when going into the wind. I divide it up in my head where the rudder is the gas pedal, and the sheets are the gear shifters. Basically, I adjust the main sail until I see the tell tales get close to flying straight back. Then with the rudder, I steer the boat into or away from the wind to fine tune the tell tales (vs fine tuning with the sheets). The adjustments of the rudder never stop, as I constantly fall on and off of the ideal wind position as it has it's small shifts/changes in direction. Once I get the tell tales from the main sail close with the rudder, I rinse and repeat with the jib, adjusting it with the sheet to get the tell tales where they appear ideal (flying back (4 or 8 O'Clock ish is best I can describe) and mostly still, almost like they are paused as the wind is spilling across them just so). For me the trim never really comes out 100% yet, but I get it close enough, then leave the sheets alone for the most part until a puff comes. I basically keep the sails trimmed with the rudder after that, like a gas pedal... falling slightly on and off the wind as it has it's small changes, powering up/down to place the wind back in the sails or remove it as necessary. Only when a significant change in wind direction occurs, or I need to point the boat a new direction, do I go back to the sheets for adjustment (shifting gears). Or at least this is how it is in my head. Again, not sure if the problem getting speed is related, but I know I had a similar frustration trying to figure out the boat at first, and thought I would share.

As for tacks, I still have trouble with them... I think I am little trigger happy on pulling the jib across too soon. I always seem to slow down to much

My boat has been de-masted in the past, and I have a slightly bent tabernacle from the "event", lol. However, I was able to make the mast straight when raised by tuning the rigging. If you have not sone so, I would definitely tune the rig. The boat will not sail well until you have. Here is a link to the guide I used http://www.onedesign.com/Portals/106/docs/Tuning%20Guides/north-daysailer-tuningguide.pdf. There a re few guides out there, but this one seemed to be more in the middle with rig tension etc. AKA happy medium between cruiser and racer, even though the guy that wrote it was a racer. None the less, I followed it when I replaced my standing rigging and the boat is much happier.

I had some odd 50-60ft of main sheet on my boat for some reason (it is a DSII with mid boom sheeting so was really a waste of rope). So, I took some of that and used it as a mainsail outhaul. My boat has a shackle attached to that little hole at the end of the boom, with a single block on it. I believe that there is enough purchase with it (at least for me) to tighten the outhaul all the way. The only thing I do not like is the cleat on the boom it connects to. It does not seem to hold the line by itself. I typically just wrap and tuck the outhaul once in the cleat, and it does not loosen up after that.

Go back out and sail the boat some more! It only took me like 2 dozen times before I did something productive, lol. But I spent so many times pulling the boat back out for repairs as soon as I put it in. Once you have everything figured out and the way you like it, you will enjoy the boat

Thanks for the very detailed descriptions of seamanship. I'll reread them and the tuning guide a couple of times before they stick well enough to apply them on the water. I think a couple of trips out with the sailing club (on their boats, just because that's how it works) will also help. I neglected to mention the joy I felt watching her slip off the trailer onto the water. That and the initial sailing, which was not bad before the wind fell off, were really uplifting.

The end of the boom was only about 16" off the seats, possibly because the main didn't get all the way up. I tried running the halyard over the masthead sheaves and it runs free, even over the splice. If the wind cooperates, I will step the mast in my driveway to see what prevents it from running all the way up. I assume its not bad for the splice (single braid straight bury) to run it over the sheaves. I drained about a half gallon (eyeball) from the bilge once I towed her out. I don't know enough to say if that's excessive. Seems I have one of those special water-ballasted rudder blades, given all the water that ran out when I pulled it up.

Given how low the Honda rides compared to the usual tow vehicle, the only way I could see any more of the trailer besides the winch stem was to scooch up the seat back and look down. Which doesn't give the best position for operating the clutch pedal. I am glad that, for the time being, I can use the vehicle I have, and that the boat does not severely limit the kind of vehicle I might buy in the future.

Any comments on the venue? I have seens others sail similar size boats there, but usually Sunfish are the biggest. As the map in my prior post shows, there's not much space if you stay in water 3' or deeper. No gas motors are allowed, though I don't yet have one anyway. I think an outboard motor is an essential prerequisite for launching on Lake Michigan. Anyone here sail out of Chicago?

KingsTransom wrote:Thanks for the very detailed descriptions of seamanship. I'll reread them and the tuning guide a couple of times before they stick well enough to apply them on the water. I think a couple of trips out with the sailing club (on their boats, just because that's how it works) will also help. I neglected to mention the joy I felt watching her slip off the trailer onto the water. That and the initial sailing, which was not bad before the wind fell off, were really uplifting.

I feel you there. I was so excited my first trip to the ramp, but I found out I had a fuel leak as I was about to put her in. I think I spent 2 hours trying to fix that stupid leak at the dock, and then finally gave up and ordered a new fuel tank (it had a hairline crack in the bottom of it). I went back to that dock several times with intention to have a day of sailing. Sometimes I pulled the boat right back out for more repairs, some times I found out the hard way on the water. I think it was about 6 months of trial, error, and repairs before I actually got the boat to sail. My wife used to work for a guy that races one design boats, and we ended up crossing paths. Once all the repairs were made, he and I went out on what I would consider the first real sail I had on the boat (though it had been in the water many times, lol). He really put the boat through the paces, and I think he did his best to push the envelope with the boat to make sure all the work had made is safe and seaworthy. Anyway, 2 points... 1) I can imaging the joy and excitement of taking her in the water for the first time. If you could imagine, by month 6 I had all of that emotion going on, and then a ton of nervousness right along side it lol. All the time invested was worth it though 2) Keep your eyes peeled for similar sized little sailboats. One of the skippers may be able to show you some things. I know the guy that sailed with me showed me what the boat wanted me to do, and from there things came together pretty quickly. For example, a few weeks after "the sail of truth" lol, my brother and I took it out a few days after Christmas (he was home visiting from the Army). We were able to get the boat to come up out of the water. Not sure if it was on plane (things happen so quickly), but at least part of the boat was out of the water, and man that was wild (and fast... and fun...). Anyway, until you and the boat get to know each other, don't give up. It can sail fast

KingsTransom wrote:The end of the boom was only about 16" off the seats, possibly because the main didn't get all the way up. I tried running the halyard over the masthead sheaves and it runs free, even over the splice. If the wind cooperates, I will step the mast in my driveway to see what prevents it from running all the way up. I assume its not bad for the splice (single braid straight bury) to run it over the sheaves.

I do not have a splice in my halyard. It has a shackle on the end. My sail goes up higher than that. I would say 2-3ft without measuring. The boom is definitely a little over head when sitting in the boat. With the shackle on the halyard I probably loose 1-2 inches of hoist at the top of the mast. Are you sure that your sail is the correct size?.. Or even worse, your mast has not been cut back, and shorter than it should be? If it was cut back, you could shim the part in the cuddy with a block to raise it back up. I had to do it to my boat. I would definitely set it up in the driveway. That will allow you to get off the boat and see where things stand. Binoculars are helpful for seeing the top of the mast

KingsTransom wrote:I drained about a half gallon (eyeball) from the bilge once I towed her out. I don't know enough to say if that's excessive. Seems I have one of those special water-ballasted rudder blades, given all the water that ran out when I pulled it up.

Not bad. I usually take on more water than that. I cannot for the life of me find where it comes in, but it is very slow. I checked all the usual spots and all look well (other than the repair I had to make to the bailer). None the less, I would not worry too much about 1/2 gallon of water. Did you tilt the boat to drain the hull? I know for me, I usually get a 5 gallon bucket and put it under the trailers front wheel to prop it up. A whole bunch of extra water comes out of there when I do that. Oh, and water probably comes into the hull (inspection port seals) when it rains as well... or at least I get a little after a rain (maybe a drinking glass worth or so). As for the rudder, mine floats until it soaks up the water lol. I have a bungie contraption I use to hold it in the down position, but let it pop up if need be.

KingsTransom wrote:Any comments on the venue? I have seens others sail similar size boats there, but usually Sunfish are the biggest. As the map in my prior post shows, there's not much space if you stay in water 3' or deeper. No gas motors are allowed, though I don't yet have one anyway. I think an outboard motor is an essential prerequisite for launching on Lake Michigan. Anyone here sail out of Chicago?

I am currently using a 4HP Mercury 2 Stroke motor. It is way more power than I need most of the time. However, we have a very swift current here where I am at, and the St. Johns has a lot of traffic (and bridges) where the ramp is. So, I got it mainly for the forward/neutral/reverse function that smaller outboards do not have, so I can dose more efficiently in heavy traffic areas. That and it is a long shaft, in which my smaller 3.5HP motor is a short shaft. The short shaft does not like waves I have never been on lake Michigan, but the river here can be trying at times. The extra oomph comes in handy when needed. The rest of the time, it is just bulky weight on the transom, but not that bad. If you are in civil docking conditions where you have a little space, practice bringing the boat in under sail. It is much more relaxing. The few times I have had the pleasure of such conditions when docking, I pulled the mainsail down about 1/2 way and lashed it to the boom, then 3/4 etc until the sail was de-powered enough to make a slow approach to the dock. Not sure I would trust myself without an empty landing strip though

Some general and fairly basic comments on: Trimming sails vs. steering to the wind.

When you go upwind, your aim usually is to go as far upwind as possible. There's one sail trim that is optimal for that (under the conditions) and you trim your sails that way (and don't touch them after that). You make adjustments for shifts in the wind by steering. This is usually done by looking at the jib-tell tales and steering away from the one that "flickers up".

Exception to this general technique is a strong gust: you may want to ease the main (quickly), shift your weight out for balance (hike) to reduce heeling, and then as the boat accelerates trim the main back to where it was.

When you are on a reach (and you are aiming for some specific point), whether its a mark during a race or a gap between some bridge pilings, then you would steer towards your objective, and adjust to changes in wind direction by trimming your sails until the telltales fly. (On the main, your telltales would be at each batten pocket, and you want all to stream back and the top one to flick backwards some of the time.)

When you are sailing downwind, you'd respond to changes in wind by steering again, so that you don't gybe when you don't want to. Dead downwind, letting the jib come on the opposite side (wing on wing) is the fastest (short of using a spinnaker), and best if you have a whisker pole to pole out the clew (so the jib presents the largest area).

However, sailing wing on wing puts you close to where a wind shift can force a gybe, so best for steady conditions and when you are paying close attention.

Docking under sail: definitely something to practice (best in lighter winds, initially).

Upwind is easiest, you can shoot into the wind to take off speed, then throw off jib and main sheet to let the sails flog to drift with momentum, or trimming in the main a bit if you need a bit of a boost to make your goal. Emergency brake: a paddle held vertically in the water makes an effective brake.

Downwind is trickier. If you can execute a U-turn right at the dock, you've turned this into an upwind docking, same as above. Otherwise, taking the main down in advance and going in under jib is an option. You can always throw off the jib sheet to depower.

Docking with wind blowing at ninety degrees to the dock (into the dock). Since you can't let the main out a full ninety degrees, the boat always wants to accelerate, even with the main sheet cast off. There techniques to do it, even with the main sail up, but they are a bit advanced...