Ok I've been tricked

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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby talbot » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:05 am

Speaking of tricking . . .
What do the rules say about a differentially weighted board? Suppose a Day Sailer sailor constructed a NACA foil-section board out of acrylic-foam-filled carbon fiber, with a chunk of lead in the tip to bring it to the official weight of 25 lbs. Would the lead violate the "Measurements & Specifications?"
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby chocolatehauler » Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:46 am

(Greenlake) I reweighed the board after moving it several times. Second weighing brought it in at just under 70 lbs.
Also maybe I am the only one to do it, but in the past any sailboats on the same tack as me are being raced. They may just not be aware of it. :D
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby talbot » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:21 pm

70! Almost 3x the weight of the O'Day DS 17. Assuming the Schwill 16 weighs about the same as the longer O'Day (575lbs), that would be .12 ballast/displacement ratio. Only about half of what would be considered a ballasted hull. Still, I wonder what the difference would be in righting moment when the board is all the way down.
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby chocolatehauler » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:08 pm

talbot wrote:70! Almost 3x the weight of the O'Day DS 17. Assuming the Schwill 16 weighs about the same as the longer O'Day (575lbs), that would be .12 ballast/displacement ratio. Only about half of what would be considered a ballasted hull. Still, I wonder what the difference would be in righting moment when the board is all the way down.


I looking forward to finding out in the spring. Having come from a 19' potter with a steel keel it may save me from a unplanned swim. I had a 17' Siren and I think it was steel too but my memory may be faulty on that. Worked on the trailer today. Ready to start building the bunks tomorrow. Borrowing heavily from another on this forum for the design. Basically a three bunk system.
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby talbot » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:16 pm

Siren 17 has about .17 ballast/displacement. Potter 19 is about .24. So you are still on a real daysailer now as opposed to a microcruiser.
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby GreenLake » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:13 pm

Ballast in a keel of CB requires some angle of heel to contribute, while you can shift live ballast even with the boat sailed flat.

In fact, if you race any boat on the same tack, then you'll quickly find that in most conditions you are fastest with your boat sailed flat.

Still, having a bit of weight concentrated near the tip of the CB may help a bit when you are near the limit, so who knows, it might come in handy.

When you are on an extended cruise (overnight) the weight of any gear would change the sailing characteristics more.
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby chocolatehauler » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:10 am

GreenLake wrote:Ballast in a keel of CB requires some angle of heel to contribute, while you can shift live ballast even with the boat sailed flat.

In fact, if you race any boat on the same tack, then you'll quickly find that in most conditions you are fastest with your boat sailed flat.

Still, having a bit of weight concentrated near the tip of the CB may help a bit when you are near the limit, so who knows, it might come in handy.

When you are on an extended cruise (overnight) the weight of any gear would change the sailing characteristics more.


I had to read that a couple of times, I get what your saying now about where the ballast is. I'm thinking when a gust hits that weight in the board may still save my slow moving butt. :) My older brother had a McGregor 26X that had water ballasting. Roomy but a lousy sailboat and powerboat, I embarrassed him one too many times by literally sailing circles around him with the potter. He got rid of it. :)
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby chocolatehauler » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:31 am

talbot wrote:Siren 17 has about .17 ballast/displacement. Potter 19 is about .24. So you are still on a real daysailer now as opposed to a microcruiser.


The schwill at .12 will be a bit more tender then the siren. Going to have to listen to what others are saying about not cleating the sail lines when the wind is up or gusting. I layed the siren flat once while sailing in gusts. It came back up, but very nearly pitched me out.
The potter would go to the rail and round up. Sometimes I wouldn't even move to the high side. If it was heeling a lot it got very uncomfortable, and was much harder to move to the high side so I didn't make a practice of that.
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby chocolatehauler » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:38 am

talbot wrote:70! Almost 3x the weight of the O'Day DS 17. Assuming the Schwill 16 weighs about the same as the longer O'Day (575lbs), that would be .12 ballast/displacement ratio. Only about half of what would be considered a ballasted hull. Still, I wonder what the difference would be in righting moment when the board is all the way down.


What is the ballast/displacment ratio on the O'Days?
I'm trying to get a frame of reference between the O'Day, schwill and siren.
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby chocolatehauler » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:44 am

talbot wrote:Speaking of tricking . . .
What do the rules say about a differentially weighted board? Suppose a Day Sailer sailor constructed a NACA foil-section board out of acrylic-foam-filled carbon fiber, with a chunk of lead in the tip to bring it to the official weight of 25 lbs. Would the lead violate the "Measurements & Specifications?"


I'd like to hear that answer.
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby jeadstx » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:32 am

Besides my Day Sailers (a DS I & DS II) I have an O'Day Mariner. The Mariner has a 165 lb. iron centerboard with an additional 100 lbs. of lead ballast on each side of the centerboard trunk (200 lbs. lead ballast total). The Mariner is 19'-2" LOA and weighs 1305 lbs. empty.

We had a near knock down on the Texas 200 in June coming through the Port Mansfield jetties from the Gulf of Mexico in 3' to 6' chop with 20 knot plus winds. The boat went over on its' side pushing the rail under water. The boat righted after I was washed out of the boat and my crew made it to the high side. When I surfaced, the boat was upright. My crew saved the boat from hitting the north jetty rocks while I swam to the south jetty rocks about 100 yards away (re-boarding was not safe in the conditions and shore was close). My crew later told me (after we re-united at camp about a mile away) that the cockpit had filled with water, but the drains emptied the water quickly. The side the boat went over on was the side of the boat with two heavy coolers. The boat was loaded with gear, supplies and water (1 gallon per person per day, crew of 2, 6 day trip) plus an extra 4 gallons of water for washing and 2 extra gallons of drinking water. With crew and supplies the boat was about 900 lbs. heavier than the empty weight.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby chocolatehauler » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:29 am

(jeadstx) That's a great story. Stuff sure can happen fast. I'm not sure I'd call three to six feet chop, but I sail the great lakes. I've been in a couple of hurricanes in the navy on a tin can off the west coast, so I guess it would be relative to where you sail. Prevailing wind here is NW. What is it in the Gulf?
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby talbot » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:03 pm

There is no ballast/displacement ratio on an O'Day DS. There's no ballast. The only way to affect righting moment is to hike out.
(Well, okay, the CB is supposed to weigh 25lbs, and my board from D&$ Marine was about 10lbs heavier. So maybe .04-.06 when the board is down. For practical purposes, zero.)
'
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Re: Ok I've been tricked

Postby chocolatehauler » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:54 pm

talbot wrote:There is no ballast/displacement ratio on an O'Day DS. There's no ballast. The only way to affect righting moment is to hike out.
(Well, okay, the CB is supposed to weigh 25lbs, and my board from D&$ Marine was about 10lbs heavier. So maybe .04-.06 when the board is down. For practical purposes, zero.)
'


I'm learning alot here. No ballast no ratio. :)
Thanks
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