planing

Moderator: GreenLake

Can you plane your Daysailer?

You are able to achieve a plane in your DS under the right condions.
33
89%
You are unable to achieve a plane in your DS under the right conditions.
4
11%
 
Total votes : 37

planing

Postby Peter McMinn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:58 pm

I'm a believer! :D

Until yesterday, I was one of those guys highly sceptical of the Daysailer's ability to plane. DS owners bragging about how they "planed across the lake" I thought just didn't know what planing meant.

But yesterday, however brief, I had that elation I used to get sailing Lasers--ecstacy, really, and in a Daysailer!

The November wind was very squirlly, with abrupt headers and 20 knot gusts coming down onto the river surface, as opposed to across it where you can see them coming. I had my wife and two small kids on board, so I was sailing pretty fat and safe.

All the conditions were perfect (evidently): We were on a broad reach, main fully raised. The kids were below, their combined 90# down at the keel, amidship. The board was halfway up. With the combined weight of mom and dad of 275# slightly aft on the rail, an 18+ knot gust lifted us right out of the water. Well, you know, relatively.

After about 15 seconds of sustained plane, it felt as though the gust would take us right up the riverbank; alas, I was convinced to jibe.

So now I know the stories are true. I can definately see this happening more often with a spinnaker. I think--and this is where I'd like some of the more experienced DS owners out there to chime in--that the weight arrangement above with the board raised 50% provided the plane-friendly ballast.

What are the physics here? How can I get his to happen again with more predictability?
Peter McMinn
 
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Location: Portland, OR

Planing

Postby DS 129 » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:32 am

I vote yes
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Postby DS 129 » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:37 am

Don't know if my vote is being counted

Anyway, the DS129 does plane quite easily, 2 adults aboard, board down, wind guesstimate to be 15 kts or more, on a lake, relatively smooth water.
Broad reach, speed by GPS up to 6.3 kts. Now at that speed, with waterline of 16' +/-, you have to be on plane. Unfortunately you can't get that speed upwind or probably not downwind, even with a spinnaker.

So the "go fast" race people, spending most of their time between the marks, going upwind and downwind, miss out on the high one gets when the old girl goes crosswind and rides up and out.
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Postby Peter McMinn » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:02 pm

Understood. It's rare to have a course set up to take advantage of that reach!

In a perfect world...
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planing

Postby gerald » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:50 pm

went sailing yesterday at panama city florida....not exactly sure if we were planing or not but once we were at 8.3 mph( per gps)...the friend with the gps doesn't know how to make it read in kph..wind was mostly ten to fifteen range with a few gusts that had the rail in the water...sailed about nine miles just back and forth in the bay....had a ball but had to be careful not to turn over cause the waters too cold just now..wait til summer and we will see how hard it is to get it back up......

gerald
dsII 10169
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speed in knots

Postby Roger » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:54 pm

your were at 7.2 knots. The DS overcomes its bow wave at 5.4 knots so you must have been planing.

Were ya kickin up a rooster tail?
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planing

Postby gerald » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:19 am

we were leaving a trail in the water..maybe not a rooster tail..since thats up in the air..but the back of the boat all the way across was swooshing through the water....I really wanna get a wind indicator for speeds..anyone got any preferences?.....went back to panama city tuesday thru thursday but I was alone...wind too strong for me to put in alone tuesday and it rained the other days....going back saturday....

gerald

ds10169
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planing

Postby gerald » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:21 am

also...whats the best way to put hiking straps into the boat?..the best anchoring method I mean..I got the strap material....thanks..

gerald
dsII 10169
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Postby shawn » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:15 pm

I can get my daysailer II regularly planing in 12-14 kts and greater. Judging from the distance we covered and the time it took I'd say we hit 9-11 kts when the wind was over 18. I've planed both with and without the spinnaker. I think with the wind over 15 it doesn't make much of a difference unless going dead downwind. Hiking straps definitely help to keep the boat flat and on it's planing surface, it's almost impossible to plane when heeled over. I attached the hiking straps to SS eyestraps through bolted just below the cabin opening and run them to an eyestap on the transom. It's important to keep the crew weight aft to keep the bow light and sailing on it's flatter sections. The centerboard is at least half way up and usually even higher. I don't reef or drop the jib either, you'll be surprised how much easier the boat sails when planing and you won't feel like you're overcanvassed. Another crucial piece of rigging is a boom vang so the mainsail stays powered and doesn't spill the wind. My experience with the boat is that it planes very easily. The first time was similar to Peter's in that a gust hit, we hiked out and off the boat went. The whole bow was out of the water with the bow wave starting at about the cuddy and the water streaming aft with the wake crossing way behind the transom. It was a great feeling, I look forward to that everytime I go out and watch the faces of the sailers in their "hot boats" as we sail by.

Good Sailing,
Shawn
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Postby Peter McMinn » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:57 pm

Yeah, I forgot to mention that I have a fairly powerful vang and had that buckled down pretty tight, that day.

It's great to get all the recipies for success here! Looking forward to getting out to try them in a couple of months.

On the note of control, how do you prevent spinnaker oscillation on a plane? The thought sends shivers down the backside.
Peter McMinn
 
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Postby shawn » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:13 pm

Hi Pete,

I avoid using the spinnaker in anything over 15-16 kts and I haven't gotten into trouble yet but the reason for oscillations is that the spinnaker is unstable and moving around too much. I was on a bigger boat in 20+ kts when this happened, I agree with you it was very scary. The solution was to sheet it in tight, this will stop it from rolling side to side and depower it by flattening it. I hope I never have to try that exercise in the daysailer...I have a feeling I would end up swimming!!

-Shawn
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rollies under spinnaker

Postby captainseasick » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:12 pm

In case of imminent "death roll" under spinnaker,
#1 ease out mainsail #2 tension spinnaker sheet #3 drop the centerboard all the way. # 4 Hang on!
Michael D. Schreibman
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Postby Bob Hunkins » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:34 pm

I've found that having "death rolls" with the Day Sailer is uncommon. Since we have a fractional spinnaker (it isn't hoisted to the masthead), the forces on it aren't enough to cause death rolls. I have broached once in my DS with the spinnaker up. Luckily we didn't go over, although I thought we going to for a moment. A gust hit us on a windy day and the boat rounded up. The gunwale was buried and we had about 6 inches of water inside the boat afterwards. Boats like the J/24 are more prone to death rolls. My understanding is that the trick is for the helmsman to steer to keep the boat under the spinnaker, which might be a good technique to try if you do find yourself death rolling is a DS.

If you have a broach, my understanding is that the thing to do is to let the vang off quickly, and ease the spinnaker sheet. Don't ease the guy no matter what! That will just keep the spinnaker drawing and hasten a capcize.

One situation I was in as crew during the 2004 Midwinters was interesting.
The fleet was sailing down wind to the leeward mark. Winds were 15+, and a 30+kt gust hit us. Nearly all the boats capcized. Those few that did not had done two things:

1. They had a small amount (less than 20 degrees) of centerboard just to give the boat some tracking ability, but not so much that the boat could trip over the board if the boat rounded up.

2. They had just gybed so that the shift that occurred with the gust didn't cause an accidental gybe.

I used to be very nervous about flying the spinnaker in winds over 13 knots, but with time I've gotten comfortable with it. It's almost to the point where if I'm not planing with the spinnaker up, it's not so much fun. It'a all about experience and pushing the envelope a little bit each time. Eventually you get there, but you do take a risk. If I do sail in conditions I'm not comfortable in I only do it if I know I have help available if things go bad and I have experienced crew on board.

I've planed often in windward-leeward races. Part of the trick is to sail the correct gybe angle to the leeward mark so that you can plane. If done properly, your velocity made good to the mark is actually higher than if you were to sail a course dead down wind.
Of course if you sail too high a course your VMG goes down becasue you are sailing a longer distance. It's hard to tell what that angle is.

It's kind of like the concept of staying on the lifted tack in oscillating breezes, but reversed. Going downwind you try to stay on the headed gybe in an oscillating wind.

I've been trying to figure out the best downwind angle for the Day Sailer; perhaps I'll understand it after this sailing season.
Bob Hunkins
#11750, "Surprise"
San Leon, Texas
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Postby Peter McMinn » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:34 pm

Thanks Bob, this really helps. Here in Stump Town we have river sailing, and mainly windward-leeward. I know what you're saying about finding the right jibe. Still looking!
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Postby michaelyogi » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:04 am

Ok here's my story...
Two days ago we had a fairly stiff wind (15G25+), waves of 12", and a broad reach. I was at the tiller (145#), my friend Mark was amidship (175#) when we decided to try and plane her. Mark hiked out and suddenly the whole experience changed. I was holding a fair amount of weather helm but suddenly it felt like we lifted up and the tiller got "light".
The wake behind us was like the wake off of a power boat. It was incredible. I've not had this boat long so I don't know if we were planing or not. Mark has been a sailor for life and has had many boats (including a shallow draft jetboat, in a former life), he swore we were planing. I know we were going fast, faster than I thought possible in a sailboat.
Too cool. Can't wait to try it again.
Oh also, reefed main and a storm jib that day...go figure.
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