Upgrade Costs

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Upgrade Costs

Postby Baysailer » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:31 pm

I was sitting through a budget meeting yesterday and my mind started to wander to thoughts about the daysailer. I thought about upgrades and associated costs to make a stock O'day like mine competitive. I have examined the NACR photos so I have a good idea whats out there, people take pride in their boats for sure. I assume my hull, spars and standing rigging is good so I didn't address any deficiencies with those which could show up if I were to race it. Also didn't include trailer upgrades which might be needed if you were to travel any distances.

The numbers sound really bad but if you take out the sail costs it's really not that bad. Of course these are WAG's and I could be way off and also could have completely missed something like spinnaker rigging.

Foils (including sails)

Centerboard: $100 (assumed DIY)
Rudder,head, tiller, ext: $300
Sails: $2400

Running Rigging (includes sheets and blocks)

Halyards: $200 (includes jib halyard purchase)
Main control system: $300
Traveller: $100
Jib Control system: $200
Downhaul/Cunningham: $75
Outhaul: $75
Vang: $300

Total est: $4050

Baysailer
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Postby algonquin » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:47 pm

Sure does add up fast. As in other hobbies like auto restoration or hot rodding, it is often more cost effective to buy a completed project than to do it yourself. Of course I must admit that I have never taken my own advice. I really enjoy the hands on approach and the satisfaction from doing it with my own hands. Your list isn’t to bad considering the sails are a major part of the cost.

Even with your figures, your boat, and say another 2 grand or so thrown in for the unforseen you are still way under the cost of purchasing a new race ready version from CCBB. That cost is around $15,000. :D Brad
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Postby K.C. Walker » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:26 pm

I must admit that it's fun to think about upgrading to get a boat more competitive. Assuming, as you say, that you have a good stiff hull and good standing rigging and spars, I can see spending that kind of money to mount a national campaign and more. However, I think for club sailing you wouldn't need to spend that much. I've also looked at the pictures from the nationals and observe that some of the top finishers appeared to keep their rig's pretty simple. I noticed stock rudders and tillers on a couple of the top finishers. Also, one of the top finishers and former champion uses no traveler.

It seems to me that if you were to shop on eBay for some of the hardware and shop at Intensity Sails for high quality "club sails", halyards, and sheets you could get by spending substantially less. And then, you could spend the difference on coaching or buying some sailing time. I know for me that it's not my boat that's holding me back from being competitive. Phill Root pointed out to me that all the upgrading I was doing on my boat would make far less difference than a single blown tack while racing.

Of course, I'm having fun with upgrade ideas and implementation. It sure keeps me going through the winter especially with the big snow dump that just happened here. Ice boating anyone?

KC
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Postby Mike Gillum » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:41 am

The top people in all the classes I've competed in over the years almost always have had the best boats, sails and equipment with only a few exceptions. Racing sailboats at every level takes time, money and effort.

One of the first rigging changes to #2772 was ripping out the existing traveler and replacing it with a new split Snipe style Mainsheet. 10#+/- lighter and much easier to move around the boat. About $200.00 for the Swiftcord Mainsheet with Spectra Tails and Harken Blocks.

Second on my list was a complete update in all the rigging throughout and I would guess somewhere close to $500.00 with some of the blocks being recycled and many more of the blocks coming out of my rigging box.

Third on the agenda was a new Waterat Rudder with custom aluminum cheeks, fiberglass tubehead, round aluminum Tiller and JCD 16mm Carbon Fiber Hiking Stick is close to 20# lighter than the original stock fiberglass O'Day Rudder & Head, Ash Tiller and no-name Hiking Stick that came with #2772. #2772 now has 20# of lead sitting in the bilge next to the mast.

The new Waterat Centerboard weighs 7# and I don't have to spend a couple of weeks after each time I race trying to drain the water that somehow migrated into the hollow original fiberglass O'Day Centerboard that weighed 15#.

My checkbook for the foils is lighter by $1,900+/- but #2772 is close to 30# lighter with significantly better foils!

A new suit of sails by Dieball Sailing will set you back $2,138.00 plus UPS.

Time, money and effort!
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Postby K.C. Walker » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:43 pm

Mike,

Well, 7 lbs. for the Water Rat centerboard! That's amazing! My stock one weighs in at 23 lbs. and I'm sure there's no water in it. When I was doing the epoxy graphite bottom coat I did the centerboard as well. I figured the new centerboard for this coming year. With that black coating curing in the sun that centerboard sure did puff up, though. I guess I did not do a good enough fairing job on the centerboard because now there is added meaning to humming along. Of course, knowing that I would be replacing it I didn't get too carried away with fairing.

What is the core material in that Water Rat centerboard and rudder? Being a wood guy, I've been thinking I would do the centerboard myself. However, unless I used balsa wood I'm not sure it could come in at 7 lbs.

KC
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Postby Mike Gillum » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:33 pm

Both Waterat Rudder and Centerboard are an unknown wood core with fiberglass exterior and finish painted with Imron/Awlgrip paint.

I could never find how or where the water was able to migrate into the O'Day fiberglass Centerboard but we (Dave Keran, Steve Lowry and I) thought that it happened under load and simply "twisted" open at either the leading or trailing edges.

Dave said eventually it would cause the steel reinforcement rods inside to rust and eventually explode. Of course that would happen when I least needed it to happen!

The bottom of my wood Thistle #1010 has graphite paint applied by the previous owner. Earlier this year I wet sanded it with 600 grit Wet/Dry followed by 1000 grit Wet/Dry, polished with 3M Finesse-It II™ Finishing Material & Makita Polisher finally finishing with Meguire's Carnuba Wax.

The wet sanding. polishing and waxing are at the direction of my younger brother who has maintained and run several very high profile Big Boat racing programs over the years.

Black or any dark color on foils is a no-no! Makes it hard to detect weed and you found out what the sun will do to it. Just like what happened to our 45 & LP Records when I was a kid!
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Postby swiftsail » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:44 pm

I think Larry at Waterat uses Western Red Cedar for the boards but I'm not absolutely sure. I built a great board out of it. You cut into strips flip every other strip and then lam it back together, shape and glass...done!
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Postby K.C. Walker » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:29 pm

Mike,

Thanks for the tip on foil color, totally makes sense. My previous boat had steel reinforcement in the centerboard that started to explode, NOT PRETTY!

Last summer when I faired the bottom I sanded the first 3rd of the boat with 600 thoroughly and did the rest of it with 600 but might not have gotten to the bottom of all of the orange peel. I did get a nice square edge at the transom, though. I didn't realize that the present theory was to go with wax. I thought that was thought to be not as fast as just sanded (sharkskin effect). I guess when I careen the boat up to do the centerboard I'll go over it again.

KC
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Postby K.C. Walker » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:41 pm

Swiftsail,

Thanks for the tip on Western Red Cedar. I was trying to decide between spruce and cedar. The cedar would definitely be lighter.

Did you use an insert for the square axle? I noticed that Cape Cod shipbuilding has one available in bronze. What do you think about using mahogany for the leading edge?

KC
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Postby Mike Gillum » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:38 pm

My Mom bought me my first Laser slightly used in 1973 for $650.00(Thanks Mom!). I washed it after each time I raced and waxed it every couple of months per my Dad's practice with our family big boats.

All my Laser friends made fun of me as the conventional wisdom then was that you wanted a 600-1000 grit wet sanded finish. What I found then was that my friends all had dirt and grime adhering to their wet sanded hull while my waxed hull had less than half of it. It actually meant I had less work to maintain my waxed bottom while my buddies were always wet sanding theirs.

Plus it made it easier to sell that Laser for more significantly more money because it looked nearly new a couple of years later when I upgraded to the next stiffer Laser. So on and so forth!

Fast forward three decades later and the top boats in every phase of sailboat racing are smoother than glass. Many are using McLube or other synthetic finishes but I understand you don't want to capsize one of those boats as you'll never be able to stand on the bottom let alone step on the centerboard as it makes an iced sidewalk look like a stable surface to walk on.

The front 1/3 of any bottom from the knuckle of the bow to the leading edge of the centerboard is the most critical and after that the aft 2/3 of the the bottom really doesn't matter. For my piece of mind though, the entire bottom and foils on #2772 are wet sanded, polished and waxed.

Just another thing for me not to wonder why I might not be moving on my friends Dave Keran, Steve Lowry or Dean Iwahashi! Or another reason why I can think of all the evil things to do to my friends on the race course while I'm practicing my "Wax on, Wax off" techniques!
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Postby swiftsail » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:58 pm

K.C. - I used an aluminum plate inset on each side of the blade and filled inside square with epoxy and high density filler and then glassed over the plates. A leading strip of Mahogany is not a bad thing, more crush resistant.

Mike - I'm glad I'm not the only one with evil thoughts ;)
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Postby K.C. Walker » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:35 pm

Hmm… my 1st thought was Santa is probably keeping track and now you're in trouble. But hey, what's a little evil thinking amongst friends? :-)

Mike, you know now what I'll be thinking while I'm doing my "wax on, wax off".

Swiftsail, thanks for the follow-up on the aluminum plates, that sounds good and easy.

KC
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Postby Mike Gillum » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:47 pm

Last December I mentioned that McLube and other synthetic finishes made the bottom and centerboard of your boat too slick to stand on?
Prior to leaving for DS NAC's I fixed several dings in both the centerboard and rudder, wet sanded using 1000 wet/dry, polished, and waxed exactly the same way I do the bottom of all of my boats.
Well a polished and waxed centerboard is also exceptionally slippery too!
At Junior NAC's my skipper and I capsized minutes after we started the third race.
Being the heavier of the two of us (by a significant amount), I jumped on the centerboard to keep #2772 from turtling and the mast from sticking into the shallow muddy bottom of Clear Lake.
Almost as soon as I stepped out towards the tip of the centerboard to start righting #2772 off I went for a swim in Clear Lake!
It was only after my second or third trip back onto the centerboard that I finally got wise enough not to leverage my weight too far outboard and place my feet in such away that I didn't go for yet another swim.
We finally righted #2772 but we still needed a tow back to the hoist at Lakewood Yacht Club to drain Clear Lake out of #2772 and get ready for the afternoon practice race for NAC's.
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Postby jw » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:58 pm

Speaking of upgrades, what are the top guys using for mast/boom combinations? Also, how about foils? I know of Phil's, but is Waterat still around?

Thanks!
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Postby Mike Gillum » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:09 pm

#2772 came with a non-tapered Allspar that I thought was competitive.
The foam-filled Dyer Boom on the other hand wasn't adequate so I spent well over a year trying to find a better boom.
Eventually I bought DS #1154 for the newer tapered Ballenger Mast and Boom that I've been using the past three seasons.
A tapered mast whether its an old original Proctor, a new Selden/Proctor, or Ballenger will bend more readily allowing for easier depowering.
A stiff boom is also a must for vang-sheeting the Main so an old original Proctor, a new Selden/Proctor, or Ballenger will work well.
Waterat Sailing Equipment is in Watsonville and still making blades for several one design classes. Larry Tuttle can be reached at (831) 768-1520 or larry@waterat.com.
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