Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

[GreenLake]

Swivel cam!

[talbot]

I like upward facing cleats. I have sailed with people on this forum who like to do things upside down, and they make it work. But it seemed awkward to me. I understand there are lots of Day Sailers in Brazil. Maybe it works better south of the equator, because the boats are all upside down to begin with.

I never paid much attention to jib sheets until I got knocked over one day because I couldn't get the sail free. It held the bow downwind, and once the boom hit the water, there was no way to let out the main. I managed to kick the jib free at the last moment. Later, there was a discussion about capsizing on this forum, and it seemed like the last thing everyone remembered before hitting the water was that the jib was stuck. As you found in your test sail, the boat will usually round up by itself. The wild card is a gust that knocks the boat so far over so quickly that the CB and rudder are mostly out of the water. With no control surfaces to work with, there is no solution except to blow the sheets. And because the boom will keep the main from swinging out beyond the water line, the jib is what really needs to let go.

[DigitalMechanic]

Does anyone know how thick the fiberglass is on top of the centerboard trunk? What is the max depth you can sink a screw into it (for the cleats) before hitting the centerboard?

[GreenLake]

In my setup, the screws are visible on the inside of the trunk, just barely below the top.

Click on the image to enlarge
What you don't see is that there's a patch of thicker fiberglass that fills much of the void under the metal profile. I had to drill some dimples into it, to create clearance for the nuts on the bolts that hold the cleats to the metal profile. Not my design, but it works well.

[DigitalMechanic]

Thanks GL. I have the DS II, so I have angled sections already on the centerboard trunk that I think would be a useful location to use (I think O'Day actually put cleats there at one time, so I imagine it is strong enough). I was going to take the cam cleats and put them right into the fiberglass on the angled parts. When I tap on it, it feels pretty thick. Just not sure how thick? Trying to find the right length screw for the job. I don't want the centerboard hitting the screw when it is up.

It looks like your cleats are slanted up. I remember you saying this helps them stay cleated, but sometimes you have to "cleat with foot". I am playing with this idea... putting a bullseye fairlead in front of the cleat where the sheet enters it, with the bullseye and cleat angled downward with the sloping part of the centerboard trunk. I think that this will allow quick cleating and un-cleating from a fairly similar angle from the side of the boat (hold the sheet slightly higher to keep it from cleating when you pull it, a little lower to auto cleat). The bullseye fairlead in front would keep tension on the sheet and pulled down, not allowing it to accidentally un-cleat while not being held. It looks like I have a little more space than you do to actually get both of those parts in, so I see why you faced yours slanting up.

It was dark, but here is a picture of what I am trying to do. Just need to know how deep into the fiberglass I can go with the screw before I endanger the centerboard...

[GreenLake]

The bullseye will add the risk of the sheet re-cleating as it pulls through, or while you are trying to hold it in your hand for quick gust response.

A more important downside, from my point of view is that once you have the sheet "captive" at that central spot, you can only operate it from the far side of the boat. My cleats are open for that reason: I can grab the sheet anywhere, pull it tight, trim it, and then drop it, from above, in the cleat. When single-handing, I do tie the ends together so I just grab any part of the sheet. (I "single-hand" quite often while not alone in the boat, but perhaps with inexperienced crew - I find it essential to be able to operate the jib sheet from nearly anywhere in the boat, as long as I can reach it at all).

Usually, when I have trimmed the sheet to where I want it, and am ready to cleat it, I'm not in a hurry. If I'm sitting on the high side (so high that I can't drop the sheet by lowering the angle of pull) I do indeed use a foot to help out, but, unlike the need to release the sheet in response to a gust, this operation doesn't have to be instantaneous.

So, I'm happy to optimize for the case where I want the sheet to come off and stay off the cleat, immediately and definitely.

For the depth of the CB top, just drill a pilot hole all the way through, and the you'll know.

[jeadstx]

I recently replaced my cam cleats with a better quality cam than I was using previously. I used screws to secure my cam cleats to the centerboard trunk. I used a 2" #10 screw and it did not interfere with the centerboard. I didn't use the fairlead in front of the cleat, rather I attached a SS loop fairlead to the top of the cleat.

John

[DigitalMechanic]

Awesome! I just measured up my cam cleat with a spare stainless fairlead on top, and appears to be roughly a height of 1.25". It looks like from what you have stated that you can successfully get 0.75" into the fiberglass without interfering with the centerboard.

Thanks Jeadstx!

[GreenLake]

Just a moderator's note: I've pulled the discussion of Sailing downwind in strong winds out into another thread that I put in "Seamanship and Boat handling". It's a great discussion, but I think it deserves it's own topic.

[DigitalMechanic]

Thanks GL, and everyone that has contributed. I am very grateful for everyone's help and advice. Definitely want to keep the seamanship conversation going. I will reply on the new thread later when I get home.

On this thread, I have made some of the changes but am still waiting on parts. Unfortunately, looks like we are going to have thunderstorms all weekend, so I doubt I will get to sail. By next weekend I should have everything installed, and granted Mother Nature plays nicely, I will get to test the changes.

[DigitalMechanic]

I have completed the Main and Jib sheeting systems (at least version 1). I am still working out something for the boom vang, but will try and sail this weekend and test the current changes. Here is what I ended up doing...

The jib cars got recycled 2.25" Harken Blocks. They were free (my buddy gave them to me), so for now they will do. I think that West (Worst) Marine has a sale on the Ronstan 40mm auto ratchets for around $35 or less a piece and then there is a Black Friday Coupon for another %15 off, so I am keeping my eye on that deal

I ended up doing a fairlead and cam cleat combo on the centerboard trunk (facing at a downward angle) for the jib sheets. The fairlead ensures the sheet pulls down first and then allows it to follow upward, either through the cleat or over the cleat, to the the normal "sitting" position(s) angle to pull back out toward the edge of the boat. Depending on a slight variation in the vertical pull angle you can hold in hand or pull and cleat from any position. I tested un-cleating and can do it from the transom corners of the boat, in which I doubt will ever be a necessity.

For the mainsheet, I used the Harken 144 swivel cam cleat with a 57mm Harken fiddle. On the boom is a 57mm Harken auto-ratchet. The swivel cam solves the auto-cleating problem by reversing the un-cleat mechanism to an upwards pull. Again, you can hold the main sheet in hand or pull and cleat with a slight change on vertical angel.

[Alan]

Gonna have to do this in two posts, since we're only allowed three attachments per, so here goes:

I've got a lot more respect for the stock DSII jib sheet cleat/fairlead hardware since I figured out how it's supposed to work.

You can handhold the sheet, but if you need to cleat it, you do it like so (port side shown, top of photo is toward the bow):

stock jib sheet cleat - cleated (resized).jpg (129.24 KiB) Viewed 10279 times

and if you're single-handing, you can let it drop, like so, while you hold the mainsheet and tiller.

stock jib sheet cleat - cleated (2) (resized).jpg (126.98 KiB) Viewed 10279 times

But let's say you need to let it loose in a hurry (next post) . . .

[Alan]

. . . all you need to do is reach over with the free hand you just took off of (probably) the mainsheet, and grab the free end of the jib sheet . . .

stock jib sheet cleat - uncleated (resized).jpg (125.36 KiB) Viewed 10282 times

. . . and give it a good yank; out it comes, and when you drop it, the jib flies to the wind and you're free to do whatever else you need to do to keep from capsizing.

stock jib sheet cleat - uncleated (2) (resized).jpg (120.5 KiB) Viewed 10282 times

That said, I've installed a whole new design (swivel cam cleat) on top of the coamings, mostly because my crew likes to lounge in the corners where the stock cleat/fairleads used to reside.

[jeadstx]

After snagging things like belt loops on the ends of the jib tracks several times, I added rubber end covers to each end of the tracks. I used the rubber end caps used on fiberglass battens. Solved my snagging problem.

John

[Alan]

That's a really good idea, John. The setup I put on top of the coamings comes with end caps that do the same thing, but it's easy to lose one (I know this for a fact) and then you have to order a new set of four from Ronstan or one of its online outlets.

I've snagged a hand on the the end of one of the jib tracks, and then had to waste time stopping the bleeding and cleaning up the boat. Not to mention that it hurt...