Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Moderator: GreenLake

Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby TIM WEBB » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:55 pm

According to my 2005 H2 Owners and Shop Manuals, the BF2D was (is?) offered in four types:

SA - short shaft, throttle lever
SHA - short shaft, throttle grip on tiller, but w/o centrifugal clutch
SCHA - short shaft, throttle grip, with centrifugal clutch
LCHA - long shaft, throttle grip, with centrifugal clutch

Don't know about prior/subsequent model years ...

Talbot, FWIW, there's a really easy way to tell if the motor does or doesn't have a clutch: with motor off (obviously!) just grab the prop and turn it. If it moves easily, it has a clutch. If you feel resistance (the compression in the cylinder), then it does not.

When I got mine 2 years ago, it would not idle low enough to disengage the clutch. I replaced the carb with a new one from boats.net, and adjusted the throttle linkage so that the motor would both start and idle at the lowest throttle setting. She's purred like a kitten ever since! ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby talbot » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:18 am

Thanks. That's useful. I ran downstairs as soon as I got your message and tried it out.
Pretty clear I have an SHA (short-shaft/tiller throttle/no clutch).
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:28 pm

No prob! It's funny: the guy I bought my H2 from thought it *did not* have the clutch, because the carb and throttle linkage were so outta whack. When I showed him that the prop turned freely, he gave me a look like "I should be upping the price", but alas for him, the deal was already done ... ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby SUNBIRD » Wed May 11, 2016 5:29 pm

British Seagull were 2-stroke and water-cooled. The old ones burned a fuel-oil mix of 10-1, later 25-1, and finally the newest ones used 50-1. British Seagulls were extremely simple outboards, and lightweight and powerful. They were also loud, vibrated at speed and usually left a telltale oil slick behind them.
Still, I'd love to have a small one now to "play" with!

My DS II has a 2001 Johnson 4hp long-shaft, basically the same outboard as the 1996 3hp someone mentioned. The advantage to the 4 is that it came with the option of using the built-in fuel tank or flip a valve and use a remote tank. Reverse involves turning the motor 180 deg, but I rarely need reverse so I do OK. Having a neutral clutch is great!
If I was looking for a minimum outboard, you can't beat the old 1972-90 Johnson/Evinrude 2hp (also called Evinrude MATE or Junior, and Johnson COLT), most were short-shaft although a shaft extension was available (same as used on 1973-80 4 hp). No clutch, start it and go, but if tuned right it would idle down to nothing.
Those TORQUEEDO outboards a nice, and almost every new Day Sailer leaving Cape Cod Shipbuilding lately seems to have one (CCSB is a dealer for Torqueedo), expensive...but clean!
Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"
1979 DS II, # 10201
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby GreenLake » Wed May 11, 2016 7:50 pm

I you are willing to drop 15K on a boat then the 10% of that for the Torqeedo are probably not an issue - and for many scenarios that motor appears a fine choice.

I'm just surprised that the prices haven't come down for these since they were introduced...

I find operational reliability of electric propulsion much higher than for gasoline - especially for very occasional use. My comparison isn't like for like, but I'm contrasting my trolling motor setup for the DS with my lawnmower. Both are used about equally frequently (and the lawnmower has the advantage that if is run, it's run for longer periods than an outboard would). Since I've been on this forum, I think I've had one (1) battery die on me unexpected (I generally bring two, of different ages, to hedge my bets) and I've had one cable overheat. In the same time, I'm on my second lawn mower, have had many days where starting the thing took lots of patience, and have shelled out for service, perhaps not annually, but regularly. On top of that the oil changes, with attendant need for disposal.

In terms of "servicing effort" the need to purchase gas and oil and the need to hook batteries up to a charger after use I rate about equal, especially with modern gas going stale so fast and having to be purchased "fresh" more often.

The switch from two-strokes to four-strokes combined with ethanol makes environmental sense but results in reduced stand-by reliability and I think that's the key aspect of "effective" performance that we are after when fitting secondary propulsion to a sailboat.

The trolling motor has required (nearly no) servicing - I did shear a propeller pin and I had to bend a propeller back into shape after resting the motor on it by accident.

I do replace the batteries about every 7-10 years (one battery every 3.5-5 years, because I have two). I've found a winter use for one of the batteries, so I get a bit of double use out of them.

The problem with the Torqeedos is that their price would be fine, if they delivered five or six times the effective performance (where by "effective" I mean performance that directly makes a difference). Trolling motors are limited in speed to a bit less than 3kn in calm water with a DS (and 40 lbs thrust). I can see situations where having about double the performance would be a "nice to have". Some of the places where I need to motor are congested like a highway, and it would be nice to be able to go closer to the speed limit to match the flow, for example.

A Torqeedo would make that possible, and it may have advantages in current on to of a bit better range, but somehow that doesn't feel like a factor six to me, which I why I continue to put up with my underpowered, but reliable setup.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby talbot » Thu May 12, 2016 12:09 am

We can only presume that Torqeedo charges what the market will bear. Torqeedo has solved the twin problems of low power in other electrics and high weight in all gas and propane motors. So they are in a monopoly position unless and until they get some competition or saturate the current market.
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby GreenLake » Thu May 12, 2016 1:09 am

They apparently have some patents on their propeller design (and perhaps some other aspects). That might be a barrier to some to enter the field.

I suspect the other monopoly they have is that there is a not insignificant market especially close to where they are located, where electric motors are the only ones permitted.

But still, they've been around for a bit, and I would expect that someone would have come up with an offering that sits somewhere between them and a trolling motor in price, especially as we are seeing advances in battery operated technology.

You can get an electric lawn mower (new) for a about third of the price of one of their motors. It has a 56V / 7 Ah battery, that comes to 32 Ah equivalent at 12 V (assuming an 100 Ah battery can't be discharged as deeply, two of those 7Ah batteries should be equivalent to one normal lead acid battery - at 56V they would have fewer losses from ohmic resistance as well).

So, I buy a lawnmower and a spare battery, I would have $500 left to gear that down to an old outboard driveshaft, and still come out (close to) even.

That combination might actually work reasonably well. There's apparently a cottage industry of sorts where people do this using NiMh batteries (cheaper and do not need a proprietary charger - which my lawnmower scenario would have included).

Anyway, it would seem that given the advances in battery technology (and availability from multiple sources) that it should allow someone to enter that market by targeting the gap between the existing products.

OK, I did a bit of searching and it looks like there is going to be an alternative - check out this video: https://vimeo.com/145789535.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby druidae1492 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:22 pm

All I can say is make sure they run before handing over cash and do not buy one in Annecortes WA. I bought two there at different times, and being honest I am not so wise to business type ventures. Neither ran, and both parties just said, "it ran when I sold it to you". I failed to make them start it for me. The first one looked clean and nice and the guy seemed so honest... The second one was at a hard to find house and the guy said he was almost late and had to hurry... So I am out $550 and now planning to save $2000 and just buy a brand spanking new Mercury and avoid dealing with private citizens. Most people find it too easy to lie.
We can not control the weather, we can only adjust our sails.
Freyjanna. Hull 10179, sail 1786.
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:32 pm

I don't know your experience with outboards (or small engines in general) but it may be that simple maintenance will be all that's needed. Unfortunately, unless you purchase ethanol free gas, or run it dry, you may have issues starting a four-stroke any time it sat for a while.
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby hsubman » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:31 am

My '83 DSII came with a 3.5hp Mercury 4cycle. The p.o. provide a receipt for a motor tune-up that included replacing one of the jets and a spark plug 1yr before I bought the DS. The outboard had set for over a year. He offered it to me for free. I had to disassemble the carburetor and clean out the jets and all the tiny passages before it would start. That ethanol really does a number on a small 4cycle. It turns to jelly and will completely clog the tiny jets if fuel is left in the carburetor for any length of time. A good source of ethanol-free gas is essential.
John
'83 DSII, 12279, MARY RUTH
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby tmittner » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:21 am

I have a two horse Honda 4 stroke. I ALWAYS fill it with gas treated with Sta-Bil. So far no problems. If you get a larger size it comes with an easy measure and pour device built right into the container. My Honda is the old stile with no forward, neutral, reverse, or clutch at idle. Its either on in forward or off completely. Hence, a learning curve to use it efficiently. Kind of like learning to sail efficiently.
Tom
DSII #8483 Old Fox
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby tmittner » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:22 am

Also I have the short shaft with is just adequate. Long shaft would be better. Mounted directly on transom.
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby talbot » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:59 am

I went the treated-gas route with an additive to counter the effects of ethanol during the season, and Sta-Bil in the tank for the off season. If you can't get clear gas, that's the best you can do. However, my motors (outboard and lawn mower) run better since I switched to clear (ethanol-free) gas. Whether or not you sail out of a marina, look for clear gas at stations that are on the way to a marina. That's where they capture the boating busness.
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Re: Recommendations on outboard motor for DSI?

Postby tmittner » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:59 pm

Up north near Torch Lake, Michigan, they sell "Rec 90" Ethanol free and 90 Octane. It's just 3 hours away :(
Tom
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