Barber Haulers

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Barber Haulers

Postby DigitalMechanic » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:09 pm

For fun, I cooked up this idea to make a "twingy" type Barber Hauler vs the ol' block on a string that I have mostly seen. Actually, to be honest it is probably more about having fun expanding my knowledge of working with rope. Anyway, my conclusion is that the Barber Hauler does not need to necessarily have a block, just a low friction orifice for the jib sheet to pass through. Here is what I cooked up. I am pretty proud of myself on the rope work, lol. Thoughts?

It is a 1/4" braid w/ a long bury eye splice around a 14mm lead ring. I wanted to use braid, because dyneema only lasts about a year on my boat in the Florida sun. Its looks like crap in a matter of months. The braid is much more UV resistant, and I expect the load on the barber hauler line to be relatively low. Thus I expect to not have to replace this very often.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby GreenLake » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:28 pm

Your rope work looks nice.

I've long suspected that rings would have been a better option than the blocks I used (at least I used some that are all plastic, so they are slightly less likely to bang up the deck). Your rings should do better on that count.

However, I had someone on the forum who I respect very highly state that in his view rings had too much friction. I'm wondering whether we ended up talking about the same thing, because for an in-haul, the angle that the sheet gets deflected by is very small (and friction grows exponentially with angle, that's why you can hold or even stop a big yacht after taking one turn around a dock cleat). So, with something less than 30 degrees, the potential for friction should be much reduced compared to the usual 90 or 180 degrees for which we ordinarily use blocks.

My prediction, and let's see whether your experience bears that out, is that these will work fine for the purpose. But if you see them binding a bit instead of sliding along the jib sheet as you trim your jib, let us know.

Finally, I'm not sure how serious UV degradation of Dyneema is, even in Florida. There are a couple of issues. One is that the UV will attack the outer surface first, and therefore it will affect the way the rope looks. The second is that Dyneema is almost always overdimensioned - you should look up how little diameter you need to lift your boat. Because of that, the reserve strength is going to be enormous - and the application in question is pretty lightly loaded, in the 10s of pounds, not 100s (let alone 1000s).

I would suspect that even crappy-looking Dyneema rope would still be up to the job for a long time, and of course it is super easy to splice. However, splicing double braid, while a bit more involved, or because of it, gives you a nice feeling of accomplishment, and your work turned out very neat!
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby GreenLake » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:53 pm

The Barber brothers invented out-hauls; designed to move the sheeting further outboard. However, it's quite common to refer to these inhauls for the jib sheets by analogy as Barber inhauls, while the ones that pull down on a spinnaker sheet are, of course, called twings.

Now, if you run them around the shrouds you could use them as outhauls if you want. If the wind angle is just so and you are going to be on the same course for a considerable time (cruising) it might make the jib set better if you do. But for racing, in moderate airs we usually have a crew member make that adjustment by holding out the sheet. At least until the time that the wind comes from far enough behind that we pole out the jib or fly the spinnaker.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby DigitalMechanic » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:32 pm

Thanks! I was pretty impressed with myself doing this with braid. I think it turned out well. I just need to mount and use them now. As for friction, without a trial, I cannot see how the lead ring would cause unnecessary friction unless the rope it was attached to was twisted pretty bad. The lead rings I have used seem pretty slippery. Also, would a block not provide some level of friction as well? With the light load on the foresail sheeting I feel like the friction situation may be a case of tomato vs tomato? Only a sea trial will tell?

As for the dyneema, I was not meaning to comment about it strength or longevity. No doubt about it excelling there. However, It literally looks like poo after a few months, and gets really crusty feeling. I had it on my boom vang. Not really friendly on the hand once it turns... On a boat this size, and considering my level of OCD for aesthetics, I have to at least give the braid a go :wink: I think it will stay "aesthetically pleasing" much longer.

I feel you on the nomenclature for "haulers". I had been calling these inhaulers in which auto-correct always converts to "inhalers", in which I think you previously busted me on my abuse of auto-complete, which bit me good on another post good, lol. But everyone else keeps calling them barber haulers, so when in Rome... lol.

I know most drill holes on the top part of the face of the cuddy and then run them through to some fancy tray bolted to the top of the cuddy, and through some cleats. Cleats, cleats cleats... I have been playing with the idea of using a clutch/jammer type device on top the cuddy, which will give me both fairlead and cleat-ability all in one mounting.

These little guys to be exact... http://www.apsltd.com/pxr-single-3-32-1-4-alum.html?fee=5&fep=30131&utm_source=Google+Shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Product&gclid=CjwKCAjwxo3OBRBpEiwAS7X62cMIk-jqd4C3zIezwjpz8F3FJclDdMkKe-2-4uhlqNSCiHebVc5JLRoCEYYQAvD_BwE

Here is a picture of their size...
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby GreenLake » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:13 am

I don't like fancy :)

1841

The "three strand" is the line for my Barber inhaul. The other one is for the spinnaker halyard.

The "down" direction is where I pull the slack, the angled to the left position is where the inhaul goes to the other side of the boat.

Point that I discovered is that you want to cleat them on the opposite side, so that they are in reach when you sit on the rail. You also want a cleat like a cam cleat, so you can quickly adjust these. The spinlocks I find frustrating because the motion to release them is so different from the motion to set them. For a cam cleat, you can do both by grabbing the tail. That makes them very convenient for quick adjustments.

I'm using captive cam cleats for the inhauls, but an open cam cleat for the spinnaker halyard. The idea is that if I want to "blow" the spinnaker, I can pull the halyard out of the cleat and it (most probably) will not re-cleat by itself. A spinlock wouldn't re-cleat, but a line can make a loop that can prevent it from going through.

I do know how to use spinlocks because I sail on big boats that have them; locking a line but being able to still tighten it with a winch w/o risk of it coming free is really nifty -- but for highly loaded lines, not ones that I can pull by hand. Just my opinion, yours may be different.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby DigitalMechanic » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:04 am

I do not have practical use with them, only a little fiddling with one at the store. But the PXR series is considered a cam cleat. I can confirm that you pull up to release and down to set. You can always pull line in when engaged, just like a traditional cam cleat. Spinlock’s Big selling point on the PXR is that it is easy to release a heavily loaded line. As for the case of the barber hauler, that is probably moot point. I was looking at these more for their small footprint, dual fairlead/cam in a single device, and ability to combine a swivel, all in a package the size of my finger. They are definitely “captive” cleats though.

I figured I would mount on top of the cuddy near the aft edge, each leading from opposite side of the boat to the sheet. One problem I can think of is that if the sheet runs free and is flapping off the side of the boat, and the barber hauler line runs completely out of the Spinlock device, it would be more challenging than a cleat to to run back through it. In theory this should not happen if locked, but anything can happen right? Lol

The alternative to the Spinlock would be to have an angled (45 degree) fairlead where the spin locks would go, that lead out to a cam on the backside of the cuddy near the outer edge. This would allow the spare line to drop into the front corner of the seat.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby GreenLake » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:10 am

Because these lines are not heavily loaded, you can cinch them tight even without a swivel. Perhaps if you click on my photo you can see the bit of SS wire that acts like a "fairlead" on the black cleat. Clearly, the line goes out at a poor angle, but for this application you could care less.

The way to prevent the line from running out all the way would be a figure-eight knot (or any stopper knot) at the end.

The spinlock device is simply overkill in my view. It's also at least 50% more expensive, but it's not my money :).

On a more basic question, it can clearly be made to work in this application, especially if you can release and set it by flicking up or down the tail of the line so you don't have to separately reach for the cleat itself.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:10 am

The Spinlocks are $36 each and done. The micro cleats are $26 each plus add onthor $5-$6 for a fairlead? I think that makes a cost differential of $8 between the 2 proposed options. But I am not really on the fence about the cost difference at $8 bucks. I am more trying to figure out which is more functionaly desirable.

Spinlock:

Pros - presumably tidy, small footprint in busy area

Cons - Can only place in one spot, all inclusive lead/cleat device does not allow extra options on where to terminate the tail.

Camcleat/Fairlead:

Pros - The “Tidy” aspect is controversial, at least in my head right now. I would place the fairleads on the back of the cuddy deck, and then lead the tail of the line out to the edge of the cuddy deck to cleat off and let the tails fall into the corners of the seats. This should make access while hiked easier. Not sure if adjustments while hiked is needed/desirable, as the barber haulers would be new to me. None the less, if my head is in the right place on this, the footprint in the busy area is reduced to 2x little fairleads.

Cons - A little extra line will be required. Not really a big deal.
Courtesy of GreenLake wrote:That means that sometimes you need to release them after you've started going downwind because you forgot to do that in time. So, don't mount them where you can only reach them while hiking :)
Last edited by DigitalMechanic on Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby GreenLake » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:33 am

The inhauls are used to put your jib into extreme "pointing mode". So you tighten them only when going upwind. Therefore, you can expect that you will want to adjust them when sitting on the "high" side.

On my boat, simply let the lines cross each other. There's no separation between fairlead and cleat. (Because the lines are so lightly loaded, I didn't even have to attempt to orient the cleat/fairlead in any way; the 90 degree bend as the line enters the cleat simply doesn't matter for this application).

I've sailed with someone who never sat on the rail (and certainly never hiked). In his case, crossing the lines did not make sense, because that put the tail too close to where he liked to sit. (He also liked to face backwards a bit). His boat was a DS2 which has a small "lip" at the edge of the cuddy. That meant, we could mount the cleats on the top and let the tails lie on the cuddy top. On my DS1, they would fall down anyway, and I like the way the cleats are lining up on the edge of the cuddy.

The moral is, just place the tails where you can adjust them when seated for going upwind. You may not need to "play" these constantly, but they do want to be adjusted based on wind conditions, and in variable winds you'd expect to adjust them a bit.

You also would release them when not going upwind. That means that sometimes you need to release them after you've started going downwind because you forgot to do that in time. So, don't mount them where you can only reach them while hiking :)

Mine ended up in a compromise position. I can get to them from the upwind side, but not when full-out hiking (something that seems rare, anyway in the prevailing conditions). I would need to lean in, just a bit, but that's not been a problem. At the same time, they are not so far outboard that I can't reach them when sitting inside on the leeward side for a downwind run and need to release them.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby DigitalMechanic » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:56 am

GreenLake wrote:His boat was a DS2 which has a small "lip" at the edge of the cuddy.


I have that lip as well. I think what I am hearing is that the lip could possibly serve well enough to lay the extra line in the case where I want to have it close for hiking.

GreenLake wrote:That means that sometimes you need to release them after you've started going downwind because you forgot to do that in time. So, don't mount them where you can only reach them while hiking :)


I was kind of waiting to hear this. That probably should have went into the "Cons" section of mounting at the outside edge. So keeping the cleats towards the centerline of the boat (with obvious opposite sides offset to accommodate the criss cross angles) is ideal, as that keeps everything in reach under all conditions of sail. Use the lip of the cuddy to let the lines rest in for hiking, thus not having the line held captive at the onboard edges of the cuddy.

Thanks GL!
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby GreenLake » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:23 pm

Something like that.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby Lil Maggie » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:15 pm

The Barber inhauls that came with my boat were, and still are simple three strand pot warp with plastic thimbles...using jamcleats, AKA clamcleats. I still use the clamcleats on top of the cuddy arranged in a criss-cross fashion but I replaced the three-braid with 1/4" double braid sta-set lines and spliced stainless thimbles on the sheet ends....work fine, except when the wind picks up the inhauls tend to self-release (you kinda want that anyway), especially the new, shiny jamcleats....that allows you to flatten the jib some (depower), losing a little upwind ability, but when it's blowing it doesn't really matter, the biggest worry is to try to keep the boat upright!

Cheers
Mike
A crappy day sailing is better than a good one at home...
DS 1 #2313
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby GreenLake » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:13 pm

My sailmaker sent me instructions that called for the inhauls to be 18" from the center in the fully deployed position and gave "moderate" winds as the optimal time to pull them in. I put some marks on the cuddy top to help me remind of how far to maximally go and these marks are very useful in guiding crewmembers, including making easier to give a new crewmember easy instructions. I take "moderate" winds to be from about 8-12 knots. At the upper end you begin to want to depower and at the lower end you may need a rounder jib for power.

Needless to say there are some transitional wind speeds where the inhauls would be let out a bit, but not fully slack, something like 6-8 knots in the lower range.
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby Lil Maggie » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:32 pm

I've been meaning to put marks in my cuddy for the inhauls, especially since I've been noticing slightly better upwind performance on one tack...I keep checking the position of the inhauls with respect to each other and it seems I can't eyeball them even anymore...
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Re: Barber Haulers

Postby GreenLake » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:22 am

Reference marks can be really helpful, even if they are only approximate - it's often easier to eyeball a small offset than the entire setting.
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