Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

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Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby RobH912 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:33 pm

Finally got the first sail of new to me DS I in last week with my wife, very light air, didn't think it was much of a shake down/out type sail but as we got back found that the main sheet cleat was about to pull out. Fixed that with new bolts, larger washers under the deck side, and that now seems to be working.

2nd sail today in 13-15 mph winds and could not keep the gooseneck and the boom connected, boom would just come off from the gooseneck. Is the only thing that keeps them connected is the tension on the foot of the mail from the outhaul or is there something else?

I did see that there was a connector pin on the top of the boom for the sail and that there are two grommeted holes in the sail for a Cunningham (?) tensioning line but even the lower hole is a couple of inches above from the connector pin and it does not look it would ever connect to the sail. I did manage to get the pin behind a "plastic car" on the edge of the sail but boom continued to separate from the gooseneck. The PO had had a mast failure and then a convert to the mast tabernacle, but the sails all seem to have been cut for the taller mast.

Thinking I am missing some fundamental rigging understanding or part.

Sorry there are no pictures today. It was pretty windy, had to keep coming up into the wind every time the boom got free to put it back in place, had two first time sailors with us, and we finally ended up just dropping the main sail, and sailed back the approximate two miles just using the jib... unfortunately our pull out point was directly up wind and it was pretty challenging sailing to say the least for our second sail.

Anyone have any pictures of what the goose neck attachment looks like or thoughts?

Also I'm not sure that just dropping the main sail was the best "emergency" solution. In retrospect, perhaps some attempt to lash the boom to the mast / pull it forward/ keep it in place. Have been thinking that there are some bails hanging on the bottom of the boom from a previous main sheet set up. Tie a line to the bail, pull forward, a couple of tight wraps around the mast and tie it down back on the bail?

Thanks!
Thanks!

Rob

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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby kokko » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:17 pm

The boom can pull out from the gooseneck to allow the sail to be rolled up on the the boom. There should be a length of bungee to provide the tension. It is internal to the boom
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:54 pm

There normally would be a grommet at the tack of your sail. That's where that pin fits. Cunningham (and possibly reef line) have separate grommets about 6" and 18" above the boom. If you can manage pictures that would help.
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby RobH912 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:32 pm

kokko wrote:The boom can pull out from the gooseneck to allow the sail to be rolled up on the the boom. There should be a length of bungee to provide the tension. It is internal to the boom


Kokko - thanks for the reply. Have read about boom coming off goose next to Roll / reef sail around the boom, but haven’t seen anything on an internal bungee in the boom. Does this some how attach to the mast? Is the bungee part of the outhaul system?
Thanks!

Rob

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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby RobH912 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:45 pm

GreenLake wrote:There normally would be a grommet at the tack of your sail. That's where that pin fits. Cunningham (and possibly reef line) have separate grommets about 6" and 18" above the boom. If you can manage pictures that would help.


Yes should have taken some pictures but was just so glad to get boat off the water, on the trailer / then parked.

My grommets are closer together than you described and I'm not able to get lower hole pinned to the boom.

Pictures tomorrow.

Thanks.
Thanks!

Rob

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Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby kokko » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:22 am

The bungee runs the length of the boom from the tack to clew. I think you have to pull the gooseneck off to see it. I am heading up to sail Truelove today so may be able to post a pic in s few days
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby kokko » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:25 am

http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DR116

I am mistaken. Here is a pic of the gooseneck and it is spring loaded.
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:02 pm

RobH912 wrote:
GreenLake wrote:There normally would be a grommet at the tack of your sail. That's where that pin fits. Cunningham (and possibly reef line) have separate grommets about 6" and 18" above the boom. If you can manage pictures that would help.


...

My grommets are closer together than you described and I'm not able to get lower hole pinned to the boom.

...



If, for example, you have a grommet that's a couple inches off the boom you could still use that to anchor the luff. You would have to use a lashing around the mast. That would counteract the pull of the outhaul. However, if the grommet is more than a couple inches above the boom there must have been a different method used.

(now, if the sail uses slugs, and one is placed really low, that might work as well).
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:06 pm

kokko wrote:... it is spring loaded.

That matches my recollection. From the picture, it looks like a failure mode could be the pin that holds the washer that holds the spring. If that falls out, nothing would push on the spring and the gooseneck can separate. With luck, the parts are still inside the boom. However, it would take drilling out the rivets and refastening the gooseneck after a repair.
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby RobH912 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:38 pm

GreenLake wrote:
kokko wrote:... it is spring loaded.

That matches my recollection. From the picture, it looks like a failure mode could be the pin that holds the washer that holds the spring. If that falls out, nothing would push on the spring and the gooseneck can separate. With luck, the parts are still inside the boom. However, it would take drilling out the rivets and refastening the gooseneck after a repair.


Kokko & GreenLake thanks for the replies. The gooseneck fitting on my boat looks much simpler than the D&R link you provided... though I can't see the two parts separately.

The male side of the fitting which is attached to the mast looks like more this one http://www.apsltd.com/gooseneck-assy-complete.html. I have a simple hole in the end of the boom.

I looked at some DS I at the boat club yesterday, looked at their gooseneck pin (they all look like my part) and have talked to two DS owners, they both suggested that I just tighten up the Boom Vang as much as possible, "it is the Boom Vang that holds the boom tight to the gooseneck pin." I may not have had the boom vang super tight when I was having the problems with the boom coming loose the other day.

Also had someone else suggest that I tighten up the Outhaul a lot, creating pull on the main sail luff in the track going up the mast. I may not have had the Outhaul super tight when I was having the problems with the boom coming loose.

So much for my past understanding of these two sail adjustment devices, I've just never sailed on a boat where the boom was not actually attached to the mast.

In my earlier part of my post I also tried to describe the connector pin / sail tack grommet issue I was having.

Have attached a couple of pictures showing how the foot of the sail sits too high in the boom track to allow me to insert the connector pin through the grommet, and the work around I am using by inserting the connector pin behind the "plastic car/guide" sewn on the sail below the grommet. There is no place for the car to go, but the connector pin does fit behind it / tack seems secure. Not sure if this set up is sub-optimal and a cause of boom not staying on the gooseneck pin, even if I really pull out the outhaul.

Going to try to sail Wednesday and although light winds are forecasted I'll tighten up the outhaul and boom vang to see if I am to pull the boom out from the mast.

Any thoughts, pictures always appreciated.
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Thanks!

Rob

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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:09 pm

Rob,

you seem to have a non-standard setup.

Not quite able to see this from your pictures, but something is holding the sail in the boom track, correct? Bolt rope? Not sure that is up to the task of holding the tack down. You may need to use a lashing thorough the lower of the two grommets and around the boom to take the luff tension (until you apply the Cunningham, that is). Some thin stuff, wrapped a few times and tied off with a square knot. You don't need that super tight, just so it takes load when tension goes on the sail.

The slider car you show in the pictures is intended to take the fore/aft tension at the foot of the sail; it has to be in the mast track for that, of course. If you tighten your outhaul, even moderately, the boom should not be able to move backwards; but that only works if the front of the sail is held close to the mast by the slider.

Tightening a vang will help as well, but there are conditions where you want either control somewhat loose. If you experienced the boom escaping in stronger winds, that's when you would most likely have both outhaul and vang tight.

What kind of vang do you have? is it a high purchase one (better than 10:1?) In that case, the PO sailed his boat using vang sheeting, where the vang is tight even upwind. The good news is that the type of gooseneck you show is really sturdy and probably well suited to vang sheeting. If your vang isn't set up for that, you may be able to upgrade.

There's some discussion of vang sheeting on the forum, you may need to use an external search engine to locate it (look in the how to section of the forum for hints on how to do that). But if you have questions after that, feel free to ask.
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby jalmeida51 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:50 pm

I believe your boat was built by Cape Cod Ship Building and the spars were built by Zephyr Spars which is owned by CCSB. They are located over in Wareham Ma.Down the road from you, Give them a call and they should be able to tell you how to bend you sails on. Or give Harding Sails a call they are located in Marion Ma. I am sure between the two of them they will tell you how to rig your boat, the right way. So you can start sailing
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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby RobH912 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:31 pm

Jaimedia 51 - thanks for the reply and thoughts.

The boat is a SLI built DS I circa '93. The hull is very similar to the CCSB current DS I build. I have talked to Wendy who is the owner at CCSB about a month ago re: the trailer that they sell with their boat, as the trailer that came with the boat was in pretty bad shape. She will have some thoughts on the goose neck.

In my first post in this thread I made mention that the PO had converted the mast to a tabernacle set up after a mast failure. I continue to find sail issues that lead me to believe that the mast is now shorter, and that some work had been done on mast, halyard exits, boom, gooseneck location, etc. that are not really optimal.

Have even thought of just getting a new CCSB mast & boom and just get sailing... but not there yet.

Thanks!
Thanks!

Rob

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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby RobH912 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:54 pm

GL thanks for reply, thoughts and questions.

Yes foot of the main sail has bolt rope that fits in a slot on the boom. I think the tie tack down through the cringle is a good idea. And why not also just add the pin behind the plastic car like I have been doing also ? The car would have gone into the feeder slot which is now u under the goose neck... the main sheet halyard exits out of the feeder slot. I had posted pictures of that on my halyard questions post.

There is no current Cunningham set up that I can see at this time and think that I’ll address that after I’ve got the gooseneck / boom attachment issue resolved.

The boom vang has a multiple pulley set up, and I’m thinking four on each side... not positive though and not sure on mechanical advantage ratio... will check it out tomorrow / take a picture. I did use the google search option for the site on Vang sheeting. Thanks for that, a fair number of posts (wish there were more pictures), and still going through that. Seems like tight is better on this set up/which is the same as folks at the club say there DS I are set up.

Going to sail tomorrow, should be light wind, going to crank down the Vang tight right from the start, lash the main tack to the boom, pull out on the outhaul and see if I can pull the boom out from the gooseneck. See what happens, go sailing :)

Thanks!
Thanks!

Rob

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Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:26 pm

If the mast is too short, just raise the part under the tabernacle with some spacer?

If the feed slot is now below the goose neck, how do you feed the sail? (and, with my mast at least, the feeder gap is a good 4-8" inches above the gooseneck; if that's how much of the mast is missing you might be better off with a new mast.

If the vang has a quadruple block on each side that could be a 8:1 or 7:1 (depending on whether the last (free) leg exists at the boom or mast). You simply count the number of parts that go back and forth between the blocks, and then add 1 if the free end pulls on a moving block (boom end).

For vang sheeting you might want to add a 2:1 cascade, to convert to 16:1. I'm running a 12:1 and that seems fine for more moderate conditions.

I understand your test, but in light, but not extremely light winds, you really don't want to have to crank your outhaul. Instead you want it (pretty) loose.
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