New member with a 1968 DS1(rigging pics pg 6-7)

Topics primarily or specifically about the DS1. Many topics are of general interest, so please use forum sections on Rigging, Sails, etc. where appropriate.

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Re: New member with a 1968 DS1(rigging pics pg 6-7)

Postby tomodda » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:43 pm

Hi Nick:

Great pics, glad you have everything rigged up. Also glad that my links were of some use, there is tons of information on this forum. Now get out there and sail! As GreenLake is gently hinting to you, don't worry too much about the details, learn to walk before you can run. The beauty of sailing is that the more you know, the more there is to learn, it's a life-long journey. A few belated thoughts and comments, for what they are worth:

-Your green line (#5) is the VANG, not the cunningham. The Boom Vang is a very essential control, especially on our little DaySailers. When I was growing up, we used the Vang to keep the boom from rising up when running off the wind and that's it (your setup is rigged for just that, tell you why in a sec). Turns out that the Vang does so much more, it's the essential control for shaping the main upwind and down. It does so much! Leech tension, sail twist, mast bend, flattening the main, even affects the jib. Have you ever driven a stick-shift (manual) car? Think of the mainsheet like the gas pedal and the vang like your stick-shift - the sheet for power, the vang for HOW you apply your power. We've had plenty of discussions on this forum about using the vang (search for "vang sheeting" and just "vang"), and I thank GreenLake for really opening my eyes on how to use it. When used properly, the vang takes on a LOT of tension. Your vang setup is 5-1, which is barely adequate - 12-1 is more like it, and mine is 20-1. Not saying you need to upgrade tomorrow, just saying that you'll eventually want to. More immediately, you'll want a cam-cleat for the vang instead of your V-cleat. You'll never get the vang off the v-cleat under tension, and it'll eventually destroy your rope. Again, do some sailing first, and your setup is fine for running off the wind, where there is less tension. But soon enough, you'll want to replace that cleat. In the meantime, some light reading: http://www.sailingbreezes.com/Sailing_Breezes_Current/Articles/Aug00/dell0800.htm

-Ahem, you're doing it wrong with your barber haulers. You want to set them up so that the lines cross over from Port to Starboard and vice-versa. Why? Because when you are sitting on the high side (windward), you don't want to have to reach over to the low side (leeward) to work the barber hauler. If you cross the lines over, then you'll have the end of the hauler right at hand. Your jam-cleats (the black resin ones) are also backwards, you'll want the jaws to face outboard, instead of inboard like they are now. As long as you are repositioning the jam cleats, you may want to put them on the rear lip of the cuddy opening - the short little "wall" hanging down Why? Because where you have it now, the jib is apt to "hook" towards the mainsail, throwing wind onto the wrong side of the sail. Remember, the whole point of the barber haul is to closely fit the curve of the back part (leech) of the jib to the curve of the mainsail - when you look down the "slot" (space between the main and the jib), you should see two parallel curves about 18-ish inches apart. Pull on the barber hauler and you narrow the gap, which can be very good in the right conditions (there's an art to it). Again, (race)car analogy, it's like an adjustable front air dam/lip spoiler - controls the air flow. Unless you hook your jib, then it destroys the flow! Set your controls close at hand but away from the jib clew (back corner), back lip of the cuddy is perfect. Personally, I have my barber haulers attach 9 inches off the centerline, going further outboard would allow the clew to ride too high, further inboard tightens the leech. But this is easily changed later (just move the cleat), so don't sweat it. Beware, space is tight behind the cuddy lip because there's a length of rebar right there, holding up the roof... drill carefully, don't expose the rebar (or it'll rust later). Use a longish machine screw (2 inches or so), washers and a lock nut. The barber hauler doesn't get a lot of tension on it (25ish pounds at most), so use a thin screw, #6 or #8 is fine. For more reading, see my PPS below.

-Did you rig your aft "traveler" yet? The one from your sketch? If not, and if I may make the suggestion, hold off on that for now. Tie the two ends of the aft bridle (triangle) together and put'em on a hook, like GreenLake and Phil Root do. Or, if you have cleats at the back of your boat, just tie each end of your bridle to those. Keep it simple, for now. Once you've learned how to sail, you'll want to play with the height of the rear mainsheet block off the deck before you worry about adjusting side-to-side. Mine is about 18" of the rear deck, when I'm reaching or running I wish it would be higher and when it's blowing hard I wish it would be less, but it's a good compromise. GreenLake's setup with a hook is a good, SIMPLE way to adjust that, either on (short) or off (long). If you want more adjustability, try a Crosby RIg Bridle. Your proposed traveller and pulley system is great if you want to bring the mainsheet block upwind of the centerline, but... honestly... I've never needed to do that in two years of sailing the DS. The VANG is the control you really need, not the traveler. Now, all boats are different - my old quarter-tonner absolutely required me to sail with the traveler to windward of the center, and it was a "nice-to-have" feature on my catamarans. Everyone also has a different preferred style. You may want a fully-adjustable up-and-down, side-to-side rear bridle one day, some folks do it exactly like you are proposing (that sure looks like a typical setup for a Thistle). But again, learn to walk before you run, K.I.S.S..... Once more, some light reading: https://forum.daysailer.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3120

-The jib-downhaul is great to have, my first few sails without one were very frustrating as the jib kept trying to ride back up the forestay (the wind blows it up) after I doused it.That being said, you can - and want to - use a much thinner line. Windage (drag) and weight are to be avoided, so you want the thinnest you can get that won't cut your hands. I use 2mm spectra braided line, really thin stuff, but anything small that you have laying around is fine. The downhaul is one of the few places where you can go really small (or go home!), spiderwebs would almost do the trick. At a later date, let's talk about my 2:1 reverse purchase jib downhaul. :wink: GL wrote that it's overkill (or words to that effect, but I love it.

-Did you rig a mainsail outhaul yet? That's next.....

Man, I'm getting pretty far into the weeds here, sorry! But you're the one who decided to rig the "fancy" controls. You don't need barber hauler, vang, etc to SAIL, just get out there and have fun. And believe me you WILL be changing your rig in the future, constantly. That''s the fun of the DS, there is always something you can tweak and it won't break the bank to do it. Go sail!

All the best,

Tom

P.S.: What's with line #6, your below-deck jib tensioner? What's it attached to, exactly? Just wondering. I've rigged a jib-halyard tensioner on my DS (using a setup I stole from Hobie-Cats), but it's completely different. Again, this is not a control you need right now, but I'm curious.

Again for what it's worth, I just wrote that tweaking the rig on a DS is cheap (won't break bank) - my jib halyard tensioner was the most expensive single control I've rigged on the boat, cost me just shy of $100. Coulda done it much cheaper, but I wanted it MY WAY, so I treated myself to an early birthday present last year. But you really don't have to spend a lot. Ebay and used boat parts stores are the way to go. And my favorite hardware makers - racelitehardware.com.

P.P.S: <Cut/Paste from North Sails Daysailer Tuning Guide> Dave Keran, Day Sailer National Champion, describes his method and set-up of using his inhaulers below. Thanks, David!

“The barberhaulers exit from through-deck bullseyes on the vertical face on the aft end of the cuddy. The exits are about 8” from centerline and lines cross to the other side of the boat from where they exit. We sail with the barberhauler block positioning the jibsheet 12” off centerline which means the block is 20” from the bullseye. I believe that the position of the bullseye (both fore and aft and laterally) and the length of the barberhauler line are important in getting the right trim on the jib. If the lines exit forward, on the top of the cuddy, they cause the jib to cup into the main when closehauled and the shape becomes less than optimal. Secondly if jib is pulled down to the cuddy either by a short line or to a track with a block I think the leach gets too tight. By allowing the barberhauler block to float I feel the jib is properly tensioned on the leach and the foot.”
tomodda
 
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Re: New member with a 1968 DS1(rigging pics pg 6-7)

Postby igotit » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:22 am

Nice post tom
To clarify #5 is my cunninghan,green line run thru a deck block and up the mast about 20" into another block,with hook.
#6 follows cabin top,under front deck to pull tension on the jib.

Onto the vang....i think mine is on backwards and outta rope.it was installed that way when i recieved it......not implying its right by any means.
I was questioning just todat about the vang and its length of line.i just took a few pictures,but my power just went out so no wifi to run my computer to put em up.cant do it from my phone.
I also agree on basic sailing for now.my boat has more control adjustments than whats needed.
And i also plan on moving the barber hauler cleats to the cabin top lip,as seen in the link you posted by phil.
i assure you guys im taking the advice and absorbing as much as i can before hitting the water.

And yes my traveler is all setup and cleated off to stay center for the time being.
Never measured my triangle height,but guessing its around 22" or more
Ill re read your post a few times to make sure i understand everything correctly,and i do thank you for explaining as much as you did.

my vang.....at the top under the boom you can see my tail for the vang control......its not is in the sheve.....no more slack on it.
i say the vang is backwards due to no slack left,and the slack with knot tied thats in the sheve doesnt actually run over a pully.its just place over the last part of line to keep it from hanging on deck.again like that when i bought her.
its either backwards or i need to spin 180 with both blocks to allow the slack to run out ontop the deck vs its current out the top.

Image20200716_230550 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
my #5 green cunningham,which may or may not be setup correctly
Image20200716_230612 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
my #6 runs under cabin and deck,attaches to jib
Image20200716_230629 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200708_143453 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
and a wider view of my vang and cunningham.has a hook on it hokked on cleat.
Image20200716_230640 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
igotit
 
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Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:35 am

Re: New member with a 1968 DS1(rigging pics pg 6-7)

Postby igotit » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:00 am

i want to apologize for my typing errors,and misspelled words.my keyboard is very small and my fat fingers dont cooperate very well.
i have severe nerve damage in both arms,hands.....ontop of that dyslexia that seems to be getting worse with age.
not fun being a forcefully retired 26 year mechanic that cant get his fingers to work properly..... :lol:
so please bear with me.

ive just undone the restrung my vang and rotated the vang 180 degrees....seems to be correct now at a 4:1 ratio with just enough slack to cleat her off.i may wind up going with a longer rope later on.....and add a dedicated cleat for it.
the way shes setup at the moment the vang and cunningham share a v cleat.....which will be an issue if i have to use both.i suppose i could always cleat cunningham somewhere else thou.

how it was with the slack passed over a part of line and knotted off to keep it there.
Image20200716_234609 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
and how she sits after undoing the knot and rotating the complete vang 180 degrees.
Image20200716_235101 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
igotit
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:35 am

Re: New member with a 1968 DS1(rigging pics pg 6-7)

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:29 am

Your barber hauler cleats: just swap turn them around and have the haulers cross each other on deck. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with the location.

For your vang, you want enough of a tail so you can let it all out, but still be able to reach it from the cockpit. I run mine backwards, because the built-in cleat in min cannot be released if it's at the mast end (wrong angle of pull).

2663

You might want to think about adding a 2:1 cascade. I remember you were writing about your sailing area as having plenty wind. One of the best ways to depower the main is to tighten the vang and then easing the sheet. In stronger winds you'll want something more than 4:1.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
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Re: New member with a 1968 DS1(rigging pics pg 6-7)

Postby igotit » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:01 pm

last night i broke out the 8x10 heavy duty poly tarp.its fits nicely.took about 5 mins to rig it utilizing the current equipment already installed.
the rear i ran my boats tie down lines (dock lines)thru the spinaker blocks,thru the eye on the tarp.i cleated off the rear.took the slack from the rope and past it thru the tarp eyes till midship.then passed thru the lil blocks and spinaker cam cleats.the remaining slack from my rear dock line went thru the next eye up and tied off to the lil hook with the rubber latch.then used my bow line to pull the slack over the cabin top.also just attatched cunningham to peak to lift the front and take out more slack.
all my dock lines are 16.6ft in length.i bought 50ft and divided into 3 lines.

should work nicely for now.its already serving its purpose,rain all night and today.....inside nice n dry.
looking foward to fall when temp hit 60s at night to go sleep in the lake after a sail.
I rigged all from outside the boat.ill try to take down a rig from inside.if its too much work next option will be bungies or some diy pvc pipe hooks.
Image20200726_110929 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200726_011237 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
ive tightened the main halyard after this pic to pull more slack out.
Image20200726_011249 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200726_012322 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200726_012331 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200726_012352 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200726_012358 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200726_012406 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200726_012429 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200726_012437 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
igotit
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:35 am

Re: New member with a 1968 DS1(rigging pics pg 6-7)

Postby igotit » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:39 pm

got the tarp fitting better,bought some more shock cord and some bungie hooks that fit the rub rail perfect.
easy to install in 5 mins from inside the boat.gives me a total covered area 5x12.
yesterday had 20-25 mph winds,held up just fine.

and flickr giving me the warning im reaching my 1000 free photo limit and will be locked soon,unless i pay $499 mth.


Image20200729_183304 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200729_183311 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200729_183321 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
Image20200729_183334 by Nick Pellegrin, on Flickr
igotit
 
Posts: 67
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