To Join or Not o Join the Daysailer Association

[Imgaryo1]

I would like to start a discussion about why people decide to join or not join the Daysailer Association. When I read through the various forums, I see many comments about how helpful this website is and about the useful tips regarding a wide array of topics from sailing to making repairs to towing. Many of the ideas actually transform your Daysailer into a non class legal boat ie. no longer a Daysailer. Yet many of you are not members.

I would like to know why you chose to take advantage of the service we provide and yet do not support the efforts of the association from which you see a benefit. There are definite costs associated with providing these benefits and people behind the scenes volunteering their time to bring this website to you.

At the 2009 NACR board meeting, and many other meetings before that, there was a discussion about this very topic. Various ideas were floated about how to increase the membership numbers and one of them was making areas of the website available to members only thus providing an incentive for non-members to join. Another was to charge a fee for want ads and 4-sale ads.

Please weigh in with your thoughts and comments. Members and non members welcome.....for the time being.

[K.C. Walker]

Thank you very much for the reminder! I just took my application and check to the mailbox.

Why I did not join before now I can only explain through inertia. I have a very tattered application that I downloaded some time ago. At that point I didn't have a name for my boat and I have no local fleet. How's that for procrastination?!

I think that you would likely get many nonmember users of this forum to join with an occasional reminder. I feel it is sort of like public radio. I do contribute to my local NPR stations, but only when they remind me. I think a message like this occasionally would be a good thing. Putting up a sticky is not the same, although that's not bad idea either.

Thanks to you and all involved with the Association! It's obvious to me that this association is a great resource and another great reason to own a Day Sailer.

KC

[algonquin]

Not sure why this thread is posted three times ?

In my two year registered user status (a.k.a. membership. Hey, I’m on the list) this is the first time anyone has addressed this issue.

I understand your request and concern. From what I have read on sub topics under the headers it seems like you don’t have to join with a paid membership unless you are racing. At least I find that unclear. When you look at the bottom of the application all the entitlements are all about racing. I am not a racer nor any inclination to race with a fleet. Nothing close enough to consider it. So I cruise.

There seems to be no differentiation between a member versus a registered user. I personally thought as a registered user I was a member of sorts (with less privileges because there is a member only section) because when I query the membership list my name and all the other registered users are on it. I did call someone prior to registering who told me that if I wanted to post on this site I needed to register and wasn’t advised that I needed to join with paperwork and cash.

This is a great site with a great bunch of sailors with varying skill levels. I have learned much and contributed also. I do thank all the staff for their help and attention managing this site. If it is decided that we are all too “JOIN” I will be more than happy to submit the paperwork Until then I will hold until this gets ironed out

It seems that if “membership” is mandatary then that should be made clear early on. Perhaps with a 30 day registered user status at which point at the end of the 30 days you must join or be blocked from posting. Just a suggestion.

BTW - How many paid members versus the membership list are there ? Brad

[GreenLake]

Gary,

I think this is a very useful discussion to have, so let me contribute a bit from my point of view.

I got my DS because it was offered for sale, seemed to fit my ideas of what boat I was looking for, and the price was right - in that order. I had never heard of a Daysailer before, and it was only after I had sailed a bit that I became interested in finding out more about it.

That's when I found out about this website - a long time before my first post, by the way. I checked out the information about the association right away, but soon realized it was organzied into "fleets" and that none of them seemed to be in my area. The member application also asked for a boat name and sail number. The first I don't have, and the second I wasn't sure about - in fact, it took years of following the discussions on this forum to understand this issue.

The focus of the organization (as described in the bylaws) as well as the benefits offered, appear clearly focused on the interests of people engaged in one-design racing. Notwithstanding the motivaltional quote on the membership application. This forum seems to be the exception. It's definitely a benefit to the general (non-racing) Daysailer community, and, as you have noticed, that part of the commnunity has responded enthusiastically.

Any forum lives off the community that comes together around the forum, whether they are frequent or occasional contributors. I'm not surprised by the fact that some of the more frequent contributors are not members of a DS fleet - not having the same chance to get together with other DS sailers in person makes a forum even more valuable. At the same time, the open nature of the forum prevents if from going stale.

Having an active and open forum would seem to provide a benefit to the claas association in return. Many first-time posters that use the forum learn about the fact that there is a class association and that there are design modifcations that are not class-legal and what that means. For some, like the recent poster from Italy, this doesn't have practical consequences, but I recall several others that wrote of their decision to retain an option on racing their DS at a later stage. I would find it surprising if the forum does not also contribute as a recruiting tool, directly or indirectly.

You ask very specifically why non-member contributors to the forum "do not support the efforts of the association". Let me make clear at the ouset that I would not have hesitated to make a donation explicitly in support of this forum, and would encourage others to so so as well, if they can't or won't join as DSA members. I find it a resource and activity well worth supporting (and not solely by posting here).

However, I always hesitate to join any association the aims of which appear to coincide only very tangentially with my own. Like K.C., I had considered joining in the past, but hesitated because I see little chance of becoming interested in any racing-related activities. A focused reminder/recruitment drive on the forum would have gotten me to act sooner.

Perhaps my take on the work of the asscociation is based on a misunderstanding on my part. I do note from the US Sailing One Design class survey that 66% of DSA members are supposedly non-racers - a very high percentage (for the Laser, that figure is 5%). There's also a the quote that's part of the membership application, it talks about the DS in much broader terms than the bylaws do. If there are significant activities of the DSA that benefit the apparent majority of non-racing members, perhaps you should make them part of your membership drive - just as NPR does.

In the meantime, I've sent off a check, hoping that this will contribute to maintaining this site and maintaining it as an open forum. I'd like to encourage others to do the same, whether or not it is "required" as condition to participate in the forum. I personally think an open forum is more valuable than a roped-off sandbox for members and stand by that position.

I hope that you find these observations helpful.

[Jett]

Thanks for the query and discussion. I too will join, though I have not for many of the reasons already expressed. Though I "race" the boat once in a while (Wed. night stuff), there is no fleet that I know of in Denver, no interest in really rigging and tuning my boat to approach race requirements, and no interest in doing more than, well, daysailing. For that purpose though, this boat measures up, so to help keep the information and discussions coming, I'm joining up.

[PG]

I would simply echo what has already been said, namely that I bought a used Daysailer II because it seemed to meet my needs/wants and only later came across this site. I had no idea that I was supposed to join the association. I do value this forum and would be happy to contribute.

I think it probably makes sense to have two levels of participation, one for people interested in joining a fleet and racing and another for people simply interested in participating in the online community.

Also, I sometimes participate in a telemark skiing forum (Telemarktips.com), which does not charge money but does have paid sponsors and sells a few ads. I am not necessarily endorsing that approach for the Daysailer forum, but if money is an issue it may be worth considering. Regardless of the approach chosen, the key to a forum's success is allowing participants to express themselves freely, even if it means saying something an advertiser may not want to hear (I can't think of too many situations where that would happen here).

[persephone]

First I'll say that I joined solely because I wanted to race in class sanctioned events.
Second I agree that perhaps some content should be made member only, or charging a nominal fee for classified ads. If you look at other club type sites (BMWCCA for example) non-members are allowed very little access to the content. Unfortunately I think this would limit the interactive discussions that go on here, as well as altering the community by inserting an air of exclusion that is bound to turn some folks away.. Maybe allow access to the forums, but keep the other info for members.
Another idea would be to have a second membership option for non-racers at a reduced rate.
But I wonder, why is it all we members do is get together and race? Why not organize sail-ins, group sails or some other events without the boats. Maybe we would get more members and attendees if it wasn't about just racing.

Personally I think that keeping a class association going is difficult. It seems that those with less limited funds quickly move on to the next 'hot boat'. It doesn't help that the current builder's boat doesn't seem to be very popular with the racers (class rules should be changed to UP the minimum weight so that the CCS boats are comparable). And those of us with limited funds are limited in our boat choices by our budgets (too few older boats out there, many require extensive work to be race-able). Without some newer boats making their way down the cost ladder I think the class will only get smaller. Additionally we (the DSA) have the disadvantage of being both a specific boat and a general category. A disadvantage that obscures the boats notoriety.
I guess some of this is off topic, but I think it does play into DSA membership, and increasing membership is why we are having this discussion.
Going forward it is incumbent on all of us (members and contributing non-members alike) to promote our class and our boat, and to get younger sailors interested in the Daysailer.

[dcurle]

We have owned our DS 1 just of three or four weeks now, but we have already found this forum hugely valuable. As someone else said, I had never heard of a Daysailer 3 months ago, but now I'm hooked. The level of detailed knowledge that members have about their boats is worth gold!

I haven't joined simply because I haven't gotten around to it - the membership form is right here on my desk! One thing that slowed me down is that we don't yet have a name for the boat, and the membership application calls for a boat name. A silly reason not to join, but I set aside the form thinking I'd send it in as soon as we gave her a name....

I fully intend to join, and after this thread I'll be sending it in tomorrow, but what else would make me and people like me want to join?
- An online membership form. These days I sign up and pay for stuff left and right on the net. If I have to print of a form and send in a check it feels like more of a chore.
- I'd echo others in that the association seems to be mostly racing- and fleet-oriented. I'm mostly interested in the boat. So it would be good if there was more info about how non-racers benefit from the association.
- I don't think making the forum members-only is the answer; if that were the case I'd have never joined because I never would have begun to mine the incredible amount of information that's hidden in the past forum messages, and so I'd never have seen any value in joining what looked mostly like a racing organization.
- I think a better approach would be, as someone else put it, the public radio approach. Keep it free and open, but with plenty of reminders that regular users need to provide some financial support to keep it humming.

[algonquin]

I think it probably makes sense to have two levels of participation, one for people interested in joining a fleet and racing and another for people simply interested in participating in the online community.

I like this idea. Brad

[jdubes]

First let me say i will be joining this association next year, primarily because i plan on competing and I want to help champion the Daysailer. It’s my first sailboat, and it’s a great sailboat

Now when it comes to the issue of handling all the “definite costs” associated with this organization, the website and the forum, I would steer you far away from charging people to use the site, the forum, or posting to classifieds. I would try and steer you towards advertising. Take DR Marine, you know how much free advertising that company gets. Unfortunately if you charge people to access this site in anyway it will slow the growth and alienate people. When you think about charging to use the site, think about how often you see this type of post. “Well I just bought a Daysailer”.

Aside from finding other ways to pay for the site, you might think about getting cheaper. There are free forum tools through Google and Yahoo that might help lower your overall cost. You could also try and align your self with sailing blogs where you get paid for click off of this site. What about setting up the detailer association on Myspace or Facebook? That’s a great way of getting access to new members and it’s totally free. You could redirect traffic from www.daysailer.org to somewhere on myspace or facebook.

Sorry to be short, I just don’t think you’ll do the DSA and Daysailer brand any good if you charged to use this site. You’ve got to find another way

[algonquin]

Though I "race" the boat once in a while (Wed. night stuff), there is no fleet that I know of in Denver, no interest in really rigging and tuning my boat to approach race requirements, and no interest in doing more than, well, daysailing. For that purpose though, this boat measures up, so to help keep the information and discussions coming, I'm joining up.

Jett ----
Try this link for the Denver Fleet
http://members.tripod.com/~daysailers_c ... dex-2.html

[jefflw]

The membership seems to be directed towards class legal boats. Since I own a DS III that is not regarded as class legal and therefore cannot race, then why pay membership dues at that level.

I find this site a great resource and in fact decided to buy a DS based upon the wealth of information/support I found on this site.

Unless the DS III is allowed to race, I think different levels of membership are in order.

[Imgaryo1]

First of all thank you for your quick responses. This is exactly the type of discussion I would like to see. I recognize many of you as having posted questions and responses on the web site and because of those posts, wanted to guage interest in membership.

A couple of comments: I had thought of the Public radio comparison as I was writing my initial entry and yes, I am a member there also. The "business model" there is very similar to the Daysailer Association in that we are providing a service free of charge without commercials and would like to keep it that way. We hope that the cost of our services can be covered by membership. As long as we can grow our membership, I would not anticipate charging fees for want ads or limiting access to the forums. The Daysailer Class prides itself on being inclusive not exclusive and the last thing we would like to do is exclude anyone. The key phrase is we need to grow our membership.

Regarding the availability of fleets in your area. You can be part of the Independent fleet. There are many independents and there is a board position whose responsibility is to represent the independents. Just because you don't currently have a fleet in your area doesn't mean we don't need or want you in the association.

Regarding crusising vs. racing. The Daysailer Association strongly believes there is room for both and many of us participate in both. There is a trophy awarded for the best article written about cruising with your Daysailer. Many fleets schedule events that are geared more towards cruising as a social event and to provide an event specifically for cruisers.

I am sure there are lots of ideas out there and I like to read all of them. Please keep them coming. More ideas leads to more discussion and that is what this forum is all about.

[Jett]

---Algonquin,
Thanks for the link for the Denver fleet. I was aware of it but never checked it out since I sail where the fleet is supposed to sail weekly(Cherry Creek) and have never seen another Daysailer. But, as I say, I never really bothered to find out if they're extinct or not, so will be sure to check.

[K.C. Walker]

This is sort of an interesting dilemma, that is, membership in the Association. What are the benefits of membership? I guess a clear definition of why one should want be a member would be a good selling point. At this point, for me, the forum is the only benefit I see/use and it is freely available. It's hard for me to see that the newsletter would contain enough benefits/entertainment to warrant a $35 subscription fee. There are many publications that I subscribe to that I do pay this amount for, but they contain substantial amounts of information/entertainment. Still, I'm happy to contribute to the Association because of the community that participates in this forum.

If I want to race in my area the DaySailer is a nonstarter. Not that that is my primary objective for this boat. I do think that racing helps promote the class, though. J-Boats pretty much dominate in the Stonington area along with the ubiquitous Laser. The Wednesday night beer can race is dominated by Fleet #1 of JY 15s (and they're seriously competitive), though there is a small fleet of Highlanders. Harbor racing is dominated by boats 15 feet and under and racing on Long Island Sound pretty much starts with J 24s and J 22s. So I would think it would be an uphill battle to establish a fleet in this area. I'm guessing that the DaySailer has never been popular in this area because I have never seen another one. My boat was brought here from Norwalk Connecticut where I think there was an active fleet.

How many new DaySailers per year are made these days? I see on the Cape Cod Shipbuilding website with the same 2 hulls are still available as complete that were available as in process early in the summer. Hopefully, they had orders that they completed for DaySailers this year. I don't really see that Cape Cod Shipbuilding does much in the way of promoting the DaySailer.

I see the DSA forum as likely the best promotion for this boat and the class. Having benefits made apparent through this forum would be a good way to promote a membership campaign, I would think.

Just some rambling thoughts…

KC