Rebel Day Sailer I : Repair and Refit

[dudleyrome]

Well as sad as I am to admit my grandfather left me two sail boats after his death several years ago and neither were in prime shape then. Unfortunately the Rebel had her trailer stolen at some point and has sat in my grandmothers yard for the last 10 years would be my guess. the other sail boat is a different story. Well after several years of neglect I am now able to hopefully salvage another one of my grandfathers fleet of boats. He had five when he passed (all different types).

I have a few problems though when i returned home to retrieve the boat i had discovered some issues that require inspection. One is the boom is missing while i have found what type of boom I need I have not found a length (will include hull number at end). Secondly all the wood work is rotten I have been trying to find the proper material and size for the two bracing boards that are on either side of the center board that attach to the seats. I have also noted that the hull seems soft granted it may just be my imagination the transom is sound the deck is sound.

I have walked inside the boat and the hull supports my weight (260 pounds) I wouldn't wanna jump around but it does seem to have a fair amount of movement. I am wondering if this could because or made to seem more prominent because the center board area has less support than it should Also not 100% sure but on the inside of the cockpit flooring area it seems that the glass work may have delaminated some.

Also i have a few cracks and chips in the hull i have noticed any one have any recommendations for what type of materials to use in this would be much appreciated. While i have repaired many boats in the past I have been out of the loop for several years so I am having to re educate myself and resupply myself with catalogs and places to find the equipment i need.

The Hull Number on the Rebel is
RRR5 11045 C580
Any and all info , help, or just plain ol conversation is welcome. The only thing i haven't yet done is finding out which sails are for that rebel yet. My grand father owned numerous boats in his life along with the boats i Inherited roughly ten sail bags full of sails that have been stored for the last several years and none are labeled so once i have the rebel ready I will find out which fits what and measure them all out yay! lol


As i said he left me two boats the second one was a 1977 22 foot Venture Sail Boat the ironic thing there is the boat sank at the marina were my grandfather had her docked at for the last 20 years two days after his death. I find that truly ironic since that boat was his pride an joy.

[Baysailer]

Dudley,

Sorry to hear of your loss but I can't think of anything better than resurrecting the Rebel DS and sailing in his wake. I guess that would make you the son of the son of a sailor if he was on your dads side.

This is all real generic but here's how I'd approach this rebuild. First Download the Rebel rigging guide, it's under the technical tab, DS 1 pull down menu. After you get it home clean the hull and take inventory of all the major parts. Don't worry about the running rigging (blocks, cleats, lines and halyards). I'd remove them all and put them in a box for future use if they're still good. Also pull any woodwork off for rebfinishing, repair or repacement.

Do any hull repairs or improvements first. Disregard any hair line cracks, there's no structural issues there. For deeper repairs you can use polyester resin or epoxy with fiberglass weave for repairs. If the hull generally looks pretty good and the repairs are on the outside I'd probably go with polyester resins since you can gel coat over them, epoxy needs to be repainted. If you're concerned about hull stiffness look at a thread KCWalker started last summer. It goes into great depth on his repairs and may have the honor of being the longest thread on the site.

Next up is the centerboard and rudder. Most likely they just need a check since they probably didn't get damaged from sitting idle.

Now it gets more fun and expensive. Set it all up in the yard as if you were going to go sailing and you'll be able to see whats good, bad and missing. Pay special attention to the condition of your stays. A broken line or halyard can ruin your day but a broken stay can ruin your boat.

Not seeing the boat I think it's a worthwhile project without having any personal history or attachnment to it, being it's handed down from your grampa makes it even more so to me.

Good Luck
Baysailer

[Gus]

I sail Rebel Daysailer 11100 and I still have the sails tha came with the boat in 1981. Your sails should have your sail number of "11045" and/or they may have the sailmakers lable of "Spindrift Sails of Hilton Head".

Good luck with your restoration,

Gus

[foredek]

Take more pictures than you think you should as you disassemble.. You will be happy you did.

[Dave Keran]

Dudley,

A thought on what you described as an apparently soft hull. Rebels were built with a cored hull using end grain balsa for the center of the sandwich. The balsa was captured between two relatively thin skins of fiberglass. Balsa core construction was near the top of the technology ladder in the late 70s and early 80s but it did/does have a significant shortcoming. Water intrusion into the balsa core can render a hull both heavy and soft.

From your description the boat was not on a trailer. Depending on how it was stored and what elements it was exposed to you could be looking at a problem that may be very hard to fix.

Dave Keran
Rebel Banana
11026

[K.C. Walker]

If Dave's analysis is correct, which I think is likely, a repair like that is quite a bit beyond the value of the boat. It is unfortunate but some boats are not salvageable. A balsa wood core hull should be very stiff.

I put a foam core in my boat and it was a lot of work. However, I did not have to start out with removing an old core. I only had to remove balsa wood stringers and that was quite a chore.

The Flying Scot is built with a balsa wood core and they have a factory rebuild offer. Last time I checked it was something like $4500 to do the job. Of course, that means having it at their factory where they know exactly how to do it and have all of the equipment. I would think that doing the same job on a boat that someone is unfamiliar with could easily be twice that much.

Just my rambling thoughts but it might be a reality check.

KC

[dudleyrome]

Yes, i had kinda thought along those lines with the hull. After inspecting the boat i have come to a final conclusion as to what i am going to do. the hull seems sound in most areas except one. After patching the hull and repairing the few minor issues I am going to put in a floor board set up like i have seen in numorous boats similar to this one. the basic theory behind this is that the hull does flex but will support my weight and i am around 255 the board floor support should help spread out the weight more evenly pluss i will incorporate into the support boards rubber pads in possible stress points. I have to agree the cost does not out weigh the gains in my book here as much as the boat may mean to me i think my grandfather would come back and smack me upside the head if i invested 2500 in repairs in a boat that is replaceable for that cost. However I feel with the minor upgrades ill do on the floor will help keep the boat usable at least for a little while longer. Gus thanks for the info on the sails. the last problem i am having is that my boom has gone missing......i have come to a final conclusion in that regards that i am going to make a home made wooden boom for it. In the end she may not be as fast as she once was but i think it will still sail comfortably. as far as the soft spots in the inside cockpit what i think i will do is use a sealer to try and preserver what is there as much as i can. Other than that thats all i can at least i can think at the moment

[GreenLake]

Dudley,

the problem with remote diagnostics is that it has to be based on your description and nothing else. In that situation, it's relatively easier to get a good shot at the type of a problem, but much harder to be correct on the magnitude.

Your last post makes it sound as if you think the problem is localized (or at least not equally bad everywhere). I think the true story will only emerge if you open up some of the worst sections - but then you'll be faced with the need of fixing them, so you would be committed to do at least some repair. K.C.'s experience notwithstanding, you wouldn't be the first to open up a sandwich. This problem occurs with some regularity in sandwich decks for larger boats - there's an extensive literature out there (as well as forum discussions) with various techniques.

I'd definitely recommend that you research these in more detail.

Unlike the deck of a yacht, the hull in your case is a higher proportion of the boat, so the relative feasibility of a repair depends.

[dudleyrome]

I can understand what your saying greenlake after looking closer i be leave i have determined what has happened. At some time while the boat was stuck on the ground something managed to puncture the hull. it is roughly say a six inch horizontal line just slightly forward of the mast line on the right side of the boat. after doing a rigidity test of the underside of the hull the exterior hull seems sound except for the crack and a few minor chips and scrapes. the interior hull is however in worse shape. The left side of the interior hull is still sound there is no dis-adhesion to the left of the swing board. Unfortunately majority of the right side of the interior hull is no longer adhered to the sandwich board. after crawling around in the foward area and finding the crack i managed to test the area around crack and to my dismay found that a section came off in my hand with minimal effort. Out of 100% of the interior hull on the right side with out cutting into it further it appears that the main areas affected are all areas behind the crack the aeras foward of the crack still appear sound. from what i can see i can honestly say that to repair this would take ripping 50 to 80% of the right side interior hull out re boarding and re glassing. If the areas was much smaller i might consider injection to stiffen the area up but i feal that as week as it apears now that would be a bad thing. I am going to figure up the cost and look things over depending on how things look i may have a new winter project on my hands.

[dudleyrome]

ok i took some pictures of the boat and will upload them just to help give u a reference. I will post them under the photos tab

[GreenLake]

I've been reading up on sandwich deck repair in some forums not likely visited by people here. I can distill what I learned as follows:

- it's work, but can be done successfully
- careful evaluation of the condition is needed
- after you've localized the damage, radical cure is best
- attempts to dry out wet core are hopeless -> remove it
(although balsa is claimed to have the best chance in drying,
if fully uncovered).
- you might be able to cut out and reuse the top laminate
(tool of choice: Fein Multimaster)
- opinions are divided on whether to use balsa again or foam

If you have a crack in the bottom of the hull, that obviously needs to be fixed to make sure you don't have any water coming in.

Looks like a winter project.

[dudleyrome]

this is my basis of though at this moment in time. cutting out the bad area is a given but my thought is that if the left side is still strong there may not be any need to remove the inner hull or the sandwich board but to be safe cut ...say maybe 1 to 2 inches over into the good matieral and repair from there over and back. Since i have no plans on racing this boat i am curious if i should remove the bench seat on the right side or if this is even a idea i should consider. from what i can tell the inner hull seems stable from center point over so from the centerboard area over from bow to stern "appears" sound. this just leaves the question which i already know the answer is i can only know if the left side is safe after i tear out the right side and do a closer inspection....but if i tear out one side i wonder if i would be better to go ahead and do a complete remvoal of both sides and recore the entire area. ...all i know for certain is that i am going to have to read alot and refresh myself on alot of stuff before i make the first cut.

[GreenLake]

Based on your report that the two sides are different I wonder whether there is something in middle that effectively prevents moisture from traveling from one side of the hull to the other. If that is the case, your problem would be limited to doing a repair on one side.

You can always drill into any area that you think might be good, but aren't sure, and check it for moisture. If it's actually good, then you can close the hole with epoxy.

I would test the other side of the hull in this manner, just to be sure, and also test the area around the damaged spot on the damaged side. The moisture may extend further forward or aft than the delamination, or further up the side of the hull.

If you find that your test holes reveal dry wood, I would not recommend that you add to your project by tearing that out, except for tearing out a little bit to make a transition.

You can cut off a seat, but you can just as well glue it back in, when you are done. (And you should - these seats provide reserve flotation (check "flotation" in this forum, there've been many active discussions).

Anytime you remove a large part of a hull skin or core or a seat that gives structural support to the hull, be sure that you support the hull in a way that you don't introduce a distorted shape before you laminate it up again, or you may have to name your boat "Permanently Twisted".

[dudleyrome]

thanks for the info. another reason i had considered removing the seat was to inspect the foam if i can on the inside i have seen foam deteriorate in other applications and if it was contaminated with water etc the boats flotation ability may be in question and i would rather inspect that when it makes sense. I definitely will try the drill method to inspect the core on the left side and forward of the crack. Just to see if i have the basic idea of this method in my brain right remove top fiberglass layer, scrape out bad stuff get down to bare glass clean sand prep. Cut new core material to match correct shape etc....(since i probably will use balsa again) fill in all areas on the balsa set in place weight down to ensure proper boding.
As far as ensuring the shape of the hull i am debating on using a method from another boat project from my past. In the past i have used thick Styrofoam to set small boats on the ground when working on them. The blocks are about 2 feet wide and about six inches to a foot thick. im thinking that with the boat being on a concrete floor and on the foam should support it well enough. this foam is similar to what u may have seen old floating docks use.
My biggest concern is planing this all out. With the aide of my minions..woops friends and having the materials ready im thinking i can get this project done in a month barring any major foul ups or unexpected occurrences. we have the equipment most of my friends and I are used to body work on cars and other equipment if we can rebuild a totaled car in 3 weeks id say a month on this project sounds right. the biggest thing i need to figure out at this point is...
A. Cost
B.Materials Needed
C. Time line of need
D. and were to buy
I am thinking that i cant figure out that until i cut into the boat so im left with this delima cut now in the warm weather gut and cut what needs to be removed calculate what will take to repair the rest wrap and seal the boat and protect it the best i can from moister till say december when i plan on probably doint the work and the time in between alows me time to stock materials and supplies.....i see atleast 3 weeks of non stop 12 hour days.....sheesh i think i might be getting to old for this...

[GreenLake]

Where to source Balsa core I wouldn't know - you may have to google that (The top search result will be Jamestown distributors). I've bee using the System Three Laminating epoxy extensively, but other manufacturers make comparable resins. So this is just intended to give you a starting point.

What I'd advise you is to get some material and do a sample layup. That should not only give/refresh your experience with lamination, but give you a solid base from which you can estimate how much resin and cloth you require to recreate a skin comparable to what you remove.

I'm not sure what layup schedule I should recommend to you. I've done cloth/mat/cloth for creating a durable tub-like container, but that could be more than you need. K.C. is partial to biaxial rovings, search for his "core project" thread in this forum.

Again, spending a bit on experimenting will help you get this right - no need to wait until December.

People who build wooden/plywood boats sometimes build 10 or 15 contoured cradles out of plywood or scrap wood. They look like a set of external ribs. With those you could control the contours rather exactly, and if you extend a few of them up the sides you could prevent the hull from splaying open if you do remove too much skin and perhaps a seat.

If you are merely interested in removing dead Styrofoam flotation, grinding off the seats is overkill. A generous 6" inspection port at the front of each seat should be enough.

If you have a dedicated set of buddies, like the one you describe, that project sound a lot more feasible. Just make sure that you work somewhere warm, so the epoxy will set up. It likes 65F or higher, each 10 degrees less causing the cure time to double. (Check out the different hardeners to get the right mix between working time and cure time at your temperature, or better, have a way to crank up the heat after you've put core and or laminate down.)

I would ballpark the cost of materials in the few hundred dollar range. Depending on how extensive your repairs will be. Rough estimate something like $200 per 2-3sqft of repair area. Most of the "expense" will be manpower. This estimate is based on a quick search for online prices of laminating resin, glass and core.