Jib sheet cam-cleats

[hectoretc]

Greetings all,
It seems every time I post a photo as part of a response in another section, I notice something that prompts a new (or remembered) question.



Above is a early photo from day 1, when I brought my 73 DS II home from the auction. Note the classy "web belt and stick to twist it tight" trailer tie down system.
The picture essentially shows the top if the CB housing. Please note the jib sheet cam-cleats. These are obviously original equipment and seem like they work OK (having never actually tried them under sailing conditions).

My question is, should I "try them under sailing conditions" before deciding if they should be replaced, or is this something that would simply be better, smarter and easier on me (new sailor, old boat) if I replaced them this winter rather than messing with them next year?

Are these 38 year old cleats probably still OK?

Thanks, Scott

[TIM WEBB]

The fairleads/cleats themselves are probably fine, but it looks like the wooden wedges they're mounted on could use some attention?

It's funny how the design/molds changed over the years: by '79, they had the angled lands for those cleats molded into the top of the CB trunk, but my boat never had any cleats mounted there (at least there are no screw/bolt holes or any other evidence that there were) - they're on fairlead/cleats on the seat back tracks ...

Love the "weathered flotsam" (or is it jetsam?) tiedown tensioner! Prolly works better than my ol' rusty ratchet ...

[Viktor]

Hi,

I have got a DS-II that is absolutely identical to yours, down to the baby blue hull color... (#5740).

The jib cleats on mine worked fine, but I agree with Tim Webb that you should maybe take them off and check (oil or replace) the wooden wedges. Check also the springs in the "toothy" bits (they probably have a proper nautical name, like all things nautical, no idea).

If you don't mind, I have a few other comments on your various repair projects, and I'll post them here...

CB-down-haul.
I have the same CB down-haul arrangement as you and, no it does not work well!.
The previous owner quite obviously had the same problem, since he had drilled two holes into the top of the CB case so that you can poke a stick through (we call it the "CB-Persuader"). One hole is is just behind the cut-out for the down-haul (that's the useful one). The other one is in front of the jib-cleats (don't ask me, no idea).

Funnily enough, the system works perfectly when the I have the boat careened over on her side. I don't quite understand why it does not work when the boat is in the water. I suspect the problem comes from the cables that get stuck between the CB and the case. I have been careful to keep both up-haul and down-haul cables under tension when I lifted the CB, but that did not help either. I'll see what I'll do about it when I'll put in the new CB once I 'll have it done, which brings me to the next point.

Centerboard:

My CB had exactly the same problem as yours with the dings and cracks in front of the CB. I went down the road of filling it all with polyester putty (Lots of milled fibre and high density filler), and sanded over it. I painted the CB and it looked really very good.

The problem came after the capsize (another story). The board got broken during the capsize recovery. The whole tip was broken off, but not in the area that I had fixed. Anyway, now that it is broken, I have an excellent view of its insides, and I can tell you, it's complete cr*p!.

The lay up of fiberglass is completely irregular, very thick in some places, very thin in others. In the the middle of the board there is some sort of black foam material, but that does not fill out the whole core either, there are huge voids.

As I mentioned earlier, your boat must have come of the same batch off the production line as mine. I am certain as I can be that my CB is (well was) the original CB (everything on my boat seems to have been original, with minimum of upkeep over the almost 40 years....)

So frankly, I would not trust that CB any further than you throw it.

To finish on a positive note:
We had a blast sailing it, while the fun lasted. Considering their venerable age, I think these boats were very sturdily built. They are fun to sail, very responsive on the tiller. I am really looking forward to next summer...

Cheers,

Viktor

[hectoretc]

Hi Viktor,

Thanks for the information on the centerboard. Others have talked about the centerboard cables binding too. I've not had my boat in the water yet so I won't know if I share that problem until next spring.

I removed the jib sheet camcleats today and wasn't impressed with the mountings. Just wood screws through the wedge blocks into the fiberglass.
I've seen some postings where others have made a new aluminum mounting block so I'll probably review those threads and plan to do something similar.

Thanks - Scott

[Viktor]

Hi Viktor,

...

I removed the jib sheet camcleats today and wasn't impressed with the mountings. Just wood screws through the wedge blocks into the fiberglass.
I've seen some postings where others have made a new aluminum mounting block so I'll probably review those threads and plan to do something similar.

Thanks - Scott

Hi Scott,

If you want to go fancy with the camcleats, why not.

However, I don't think it is necessary. You could also just replace the wooden blocks with new ones, if the old ones really are shot. If the screws are a bit loose in the CB case, just use the next bigger size screws and/or bed them in epoxy (I sprayed my screws with hairspray before putting them in, this is supposed to prevent them from being seized permanently; not sure whether this trick really works, I read it somewhere).

I did this with mine, and they held just fine even in strong winds.

cheers,

Viktor

[hectoretc]

Thanks Viktor,

You remind me of a point many others have been suggesting all winter which is, maybe I should try it out as is, before deciding it needs to be fixed.
Although the screws through the top of the CB housing look concerning to me, as GreenLake points out, they've passed the test of time, being I'm sure this is original equipment and apparently has survived nearly 40 years of stress and strain.
I guess I'll make this my line in the sand, and will simply fabricate new wedges for now and remount the cam-cleats in their original locations until I've sailed it a few times to determine if a change is needed/justified.

Thanks again - Scott

[talbot]

I also have a baby blue '73, same rig. I also had to replace the CB. On the jib cleat question, I tried mine with the original fixed cleats, and promptly went out and bought new Ronstan swivel cleats. The problem I found was that the fixed cleats did not lead back such that I could sail the boat easily alone. If you read the thread on capsizing, many of the events are preceded by a failure to release a jib sheet. I've had some close calls in that regard, and felt it was a safety issue, not just a convenience. Like all sailboat hardware, new swivel cams are nauseatingly expensive. On the other hand, the sheets are one of those things that are a constant part of the tactile experience of sailing, so the benefit of a smooth-running line accrues with every minute on the water over many years.

[hectoretc]

Thanks Talbot

A follow-up question for you. Are your swivel cams still mounted one after the other on the CB housing in approx. the same location? Looking at some pictures of various types, it seems they would need to be spaced further apart so they wouldn't interfere with each other during use.

Since only one jib sheet is cleated off at a time, one could almost imagine a swivel assembly with a single cam-cleat and dual fairleads, one for each of the sheet lines. There would have to be a method to manage the loose line, but makes for an interesting mental exercise.

[talbot]

Yes, two cleats. I don't recall that spacing them was a problem. But yes, you do swivel them during installation to be sure the both cleats can turn freely. I may have epoxied in the old holes and mounted the swivels as if the old cleats had never been there. I always run the starboard sheet forward, port aft, but that's just my own convention.

You could in theory have a single cleat, but I would think your present arrangement is superior to that. It's a day sailor, after all. Tacks, especially in high wind, happen in seconds. You want to be able to trim or release, port or starboard, from any point in the cockpit, instantly. Think of an unexpected wind shift that backwinds the jib.

[hectoretc]

Thanks Talbot,

What about something like this. I think this is Capt Dave's boat and it looks like he's got a single jib sheet cam-cleat.

Or maybe if I look at it closely it's two cam cleats mounted side by side on a single swivel... Kind of hard to tell from this angle if its a single cam and dual fairleads to two complete fairllead & cams simply mounted side by side.

[GreenLake]

Scott,

my DS1 came with two opposing cam cleats for the jib sheets on the CB trunk - essentially matching the setup that you are showing in your initial photo.

I've never seen any need to change that setup. It works for me, both for crewed and single-handed sailing. I've never understood the desire to lead jib-sheets to emerge pointing aft from their cleats.

When I want to adjust them, I usually sit on the high side, not in the back. I think for balance reasons alone you'd want to sit forward enough that the existing setup shouldn't be a problem.

I suppose, some sort of ring or fairlead (as on your setup) might make it easier to cleat in the sheet in the first place. As it is, I sometimes need to use a foot to push down the sheet behind the cleat to get a good angle. I've gotten used to that, so I probably won't change the setup. As a benefit, when I throw off a jib-sheet it can't accidentally re-cleat.

I still have the old tufnol cam cleat for the mainsheet, but the jib cleats had been updated by the time I got the boat, and, as some parts of them were showing the "white brittle" plastic disease, I replaced them. If your cleats still hold and don't bind, there's no reason to replace them at this time.

Altogether, the whole subject of how to organize the running rigging on your boat is one that depends quite a bit on what works for you and your style of sailing. I've come to believe that there isn't a single "best" answer. Much depends also on personal factors, like your "reach".

Therefore, this is one area where I'll repeat my earlier suggestion: if it's functional, go sail with it for a while and gather some experience. You'll have a much better idea where you'll want to go after that.

[talbot]

Yep, it looks like Dave put two cams on one swivel. Seems like a good idea. The swivel itself looks like an old Schaeffer, but I'm not sure how he attached the cams to their base. Come kind of "T" structure. I looked online and all I could find off-the-shelf was Harken's "H412 Double Cam-matic (which) accepts two lines and is designed for use in two-speed mainsheets and other special applications." (Annapolis Performance Sailing) Of course all this costs a fortune -- cam and swivel come to almost $160.

It occurs to me that you might keep the old-style fixed cams and upgrade them with extreme angle fairleads. Those are large rope guides that allow fixed cams to be operated way outside their normal axes. There was also a question about replacing wood cants under the cam bases. The Sailing Center here suggests cutting replacement cants out of high-density polyethylene (HDPE). You can buy it new in blocks, but it happens to be the same stuff they use in plastic cutting boards (i.e., check your thrift stores).

[hectoretc]

Therefore, this is one area where I'll repeat my earlier suggestion: if it's functional, go sail with it for a while and gather some experience. You'll have a much better idea where you'll want to go after that.

Thanks GL. I'm in agreement on this one, with the exception that I do like your "U-cap" version of the mounting block. Seems like a more sound attachment method with bolts through the CB housing rather than screws down through the top. Thanks for the picture. I thought you'd posted it previously but hadn't been able to find it. Beyond that, I know I don't know enough about jib sheets to know what I'll think is good, bad or pointless.

Thanks - Scott

[talbot]

...And, the cap solves the problem of the cants, 'cuz you can use standard Harken or Ronstan shims.

One dumb question. Which way should the cams be canted? GL put working side up, bitter end down. That seems right, because it aligns with the jib blocks and makes it easy to uncleat the sheet. On the other hand, I have found this arrangement also makes it hard to trim in a blow, and I have had to use foot pressure to sheet in. With the working side down and the line through a fairlead, the jib is easier to trim, but you have to lift up to release the line. Is it just personal preference, or is there some theory involved?

[jdoorly]

I felt I needed to both move the cam cleats up for leverage and move them aft so I could reach them from my normal position abreast the mainsheet. The forward set is for the jib and the aft set for the UPS. The old camcleats neither held line well nor provided a good angle to the blocks.